[Tengocity]

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/i...-uk-car-market

BMW market share stagnant whilst the other two grow well.

However, BMW's sales at the back end of this year have been pretty terrible so looks like they're going to fall well behind come next year.

I've thought for a while now they're losing their way a bit and seems like the car buying public agrees.

Too much cookie cutter and lazy design approaches leading to staid and tired models, loss of focus on being the best to drive, and too much of a sense of being built to a price, means they now feel the least premium of the premium manufacturers. :

[HighlandPete]

I do wonder if part of the issue is BMW is "late to the 'crossover' party". They've played with an approach to it, with cars like the 3GT & 5GT, using the parts bins from the key selling series. But is that what the marketplace really wants? X1, X3/4 & X5/6, do they really fill the need? I'm not convinced.

The market has been moving to the 'real' crossover segment for more years than BMW has given it attention.

I'm not sure the market sees BMW as totally reliable cars. I don't, but do give BMW a bit of slack for their poor engineering, lack of durability and inflated costs. Many folks don't.

[TimMcC]

Currently own an F32 and a Merc C300h, and just evaluated a G31 vs an E estate. To me at least both BMWs are head and shoulders above the Mercs in every department.

Not driven an Audi for a while. The A6 I drove 4 years ago was a lovely thing, but every time I come to buy a new car the equivalent Audi model is coming up for replacement so out of the running. Maybe next time.

For me BMW are still ticking the boxes

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by TimMcC

Currently own an F32 and a Merc C300h, and just evaluated a G31 vs an E estate. To me at least both BMWs are head and shoulders above the Mercs in every department.

Not driven an Audi for a while. The A6 I drove 4 years ago was a lovely thing, but every time I come to buy a new car the equivalent Audi model is coming up for replacement so out of the running. Maybe next time.

For me BMW are still ticking the boxes

The difference for me is that it was never even close before, but the others have really upped their games, whereas BMW feels very stagnant. That you've done a tick box exercise to compare the cars is what I'm talking about... the look has got so bland and model evolution so slow that there is little that just makes you "feel" like you have to go out and buy one. They've got no personality I'd say. They didn't before and got away with it, but the market has moved on now.

And the market has moved on from exec saloons where bmw has been strong. Their glacial approach to model evolution with the 3 and 5 series makes sense, but why they've done the same with X3/X4 and X5/X6 seems very wrong. People are crying out for more interesting design here and the manufacturers that have done so are doing well.

And they've been so slow to add some premium sparkle to the range- you either get bog standard cars, or a full blown Mcar. All the sparkle is in between with Jag, Audi, Mercedes, who have full ranges of sportier/premium models, that are a step up from the fleet rep 4 pots.

BMW wonder why no one bought a 550i, yet Audi sold bucket loads of S6, same with Jag XFR.

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

I do wonder if part of the issue is BMW is "late to the 'crossover' party". They've played with an approach to it, with cars like the 3GT & 5GT, using the parts bins from the key selling series. But is that what the marketplace really wants? X1, X3/4 & X5/6, do they really fill the need? I'm not convinced.

The market has been moving to the 'real' crossover segment for more years than BMW has given it attention.

I'm not sure the market sees BMW as totally reliable cars. I don't, but do give BMW a bit of slack for their poor engineering, lack of durability and inflated costs. Many folks don't.

I agree with much of that, but I think market perceptions of reliability are much of a muchness. At my company it's Mercedes which has the worst reputation as so many have issues with their company cars.

BMW do still tick the boxes well, and that they score so highly with Which magazine is some proof of that, but it also belies where they're missing a trick.... expensive purchases like cars are hugely emotional purchases, and they're just not doing enough there to maintain prices and brand value.

[EvilDrPorkChop]

You also have to remember that most of the larger selling models are coming to the end of their life cycles, the 1 & 3 series are due a major refresh, the 5 series and X3 have only just been launched. So this will probably have had a large impact on sales this year, as I would have said they are the best selling models along with the X5. We've been holding off changing because of this.

I don't think the reliability is as good though, however you talk to people who have had Mercs and they have endless problems. In my eyes Audi is the key competitor for BMW, if I was to consider another manufacture Audi would be the one.

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by EvilDrPorkChop

You also have to remember that most of the larger selling models are coming to the end of their life cycles, the 1 & 3 series are due a major refresh, the 5 series and X3 have only just been launched.

Whilst this is true, the current A class and C class aren't exactly particularly new and are trouncing BMW at the moment. The fact is they just look (arguably of course, as it's just subjective opinion) that bit smarter, more premium, than the equivalent BMW to many people, same with the A3 and A4. And the GLA is much funkier looking too than anything in the BMW range, so Pete is very much right that the X2 can't come quick enough. But the Audo Q2 and VW T-Roc are here too so this segment is now choc-full of options, not just from premium manufacturers, but the top end of the ranges of supposedly less premium companies.

[EvilDrPorkChop]

Originally Posted by Tengocity

Whilst this is true, the current A class and C class aren't exactly particularly new and are trouncing BMW at the moment. The fact is they just look (arguably of course, as it's just subjective opinion) that bit smarter, more premium, than the equivalent BMW to many people, same with the A3 and A4. And the GLA is much funkier looking too than anything in the BMW range, so Pete is very much right that the X2 can't come quick enough. But the Audo Q2 and VW T-Roc are here too so this segment is now choc-full of options, not just from premium manufacturers, but the top end of the ranges of supposedly less premium companies.

Yeah, the A & C class are quite smart. Although I think the new X3 and 5 series are rather smart, if they carry this down the range I think they will do OK. You also have to consider that Audi has the A1, which BMW would class that as the Mini range. So sales figures aren't all to go off.

But we're a bit stuck at the minute, as the only car in the BMW range that we like is the new X3, other than that at this current stage I don't think there is anything else i'd purchase.

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by EvilDrPorkChop

Yeah, the A & C class are quite smart. Although I think the new X3 and 5 series are rather smart, if they carry this down the range I think they will do OK. You also have to consider that Audi has the A1, which BMW would class that as the Mini range. So sales figures aren't all to go off.

But we're a bit stuck at the minute, as the only car in the BMW range that we like is the new X3, other than that at this current stage I don't think there is anything else i'd purchase.

Same for us. Paid off the 335d after a 4 year PCP, as just nothing else to tempt us.

[TouringPleb]

I think it's partly down to model cycles.

The new 5 came out this year and probably lost sales to the new E over the last year or so of the previous models life. Audi have also been knocking out some amazing finance deals on the A6 to keep interest.

Same with the 3, the A4 and C class are much newer plus Merc seem to have really scored with the current C. I see loads of them about.

Audi's new Q5 was out for several months before the new X3 and the A5 is a new model competing against a (very minor) facelifted 4 series.

I think these things just go in cycles and whether it's fashion or new models, Merc and Audi seem to have had a better year. Doesn't bother me, makes my car more exclusive!

[Broncho]

I've had my A4 for 3 weeks now and haven't missed the 3 series one bit, thing for me was that I was bored, I'd had 5 BMWs and needed a change.

The market I'm in is 3 series, A4, C Class size cars, the Merc is too old man for me and the 3 series too long in the tooth especially if I went for a 3rd F30.

The change has been good.

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by Broncho

I've had my A4 for 3 weeks now and haven't missed the 3 series one bit, thing for me was that I was bored, I'd had 5 BMWs and needed a change.

The market I'm in is 3 series, A4, C Class size cars, the Merc is too old man for me and the 3 series too long in the tooth especially if I went for a 3rd F30.

The change has been good.

So do you think the A4 is a better car to drive than the 3-series or are the improvements more in terms of things like build quality and styling? Genuine question as I've never had a close look at the current A4 much less driven one!

[Broncho]

Originally Posted by JNW1

So do you think the A4 is a better car to drive than the 3-series or are the improvements more in terms of things like build quality and styling? Genuine question as I've never had a close look at the current A4 much less driven one!

It’s quieter, definitely more refined, in terms of the chassis I’m not sure, it has huge amounts of grip but don’t they all, the interior is a step forward imo.

Styling wise it’s different but is a black Edition in white with gloss black detail and 19” rotor wheels so it looks great but then again only as good as my 330d did.

Both very nice but the A4 does feel a generation newer as it should and I’m sure the new 3 will set the benchmark as it always does.

[HighlandPete]

Besides the cycles being reflected in sales, I believe the "latest and greatest" is now built into the human psyche for car use, just like phones and other goods released just months apart. 7-year cycles, even for cars, far too long for today's 'must have' consumer market.

Today's new BMW model is soon tomorrow's second best, when a new Audi or Merc comes along.

Buyers are far more fickle these days than years back. We were used to the same models and engines (with very few tweaks), being around for years, (Mini 21-years).

BMC's A-series engine, in various forms, was in production for almost 50-years. Can you imagine the manufacturers today, having the same engines around for much more than a model cycle?

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Besides the cycles being reflected in sales, I believe the "latest and greatest" is now built into the human psyche for car use, just like phones and other goods released just months apart. 7-year cycles, even for cars, far too long for today's 'must have' consumer market.

Today's new BMW model is soon tomorrow's second best, when a new Audi or Merc comes along.

Buyers are far more fickle these days than years back. We were used to the same models and engines (with very few tweaks), being around for years, (Mini 21-years).

BMC's A-series engine, in various forms, was in production for almost 50-years. Can you imagine the manufacturers today, having the same engines around for much more than a model cycle?

How much if this is consumer driven and how much is manufacturer driven as the pursue ever increasing production and and sales targets?

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Tengocity

How much if this is consumer driven and how much is manufacturer driven as the pursue ever increasing production and and sales targets?

That's a complex one to easily answer. We ought to use Apple as a case study for the answer. At least you can now get your batteries cheaper.

Clever marketing and many fall for it ????

Take my car, nothing wrong with it as a car, but it is "so yesterday" due to the dated technology. Will be even worse with the G series generation cars.

[mcoops]

Originally Posted by Broncho

It’s quieter, definitely more refined, in terms of the chassis I’m not sure, it has huge amounts of grip but don’t they all, the interior is a step forward imo.

Styling wise it’s different but is a black Edition in white with gloss black detail and 19” rotor wheels so it looks great but then again only as good as my 330d did.

Both very nice but the A4 does feel a generation newer as it should and I’m sure the new 3 will set the benchmark as it always does.

As per lots of posts on here, the refinement level on the 3/4 series just isn't good enough for the money. It's the only thing that irritates me a year in from collection. I'm hoping for an improvement when I eventually change the tyres.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by mcoops

As per lots of posts on here, the refinement level on the 3/4 series just isn't good enough for the money. It's the only thing that irritates me a year in from collection. I'm hoping for an improvement when I eventually change the tyres.

This is not a criticism, but your comments seem to reflect that the market (even for BMW) is changing. Users of premium cars want more luxury. Seems BMW judged it wrong in the F30, the 3-series was a 'vocal' model, much more so than the refined 5 and 7-series. The 3-series being criticised for not being as quiet as Audi or Mercedes.

Merc was always the 'comfort' marque, Audi with the latest A4 were purposely moving to more comfort and luxury, due to customer demand.

BMW are on the horns of dilemma, as I see it, some users want less refinement, want the raw 'sporty' approach, whereas many users want performance 'with' comfort, low noise levels, (Merc levels of NVH). A sort of dilution of what the smaller BMW models were all about.

[TouringPleb]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Besides the cycles being reflected in sales, I believe the "latest and greatest" is now built into the human psyche for car use, just like phones and other goods released just months apart. 7-year cycles, even for cars, far too long for today's 'must have' consumer market.

Today's new BMW model is soon tomorrow's second best, when a new Audi or Merc comes along.

Buyers are far more fickle these days than years back. We were used to the same models and engines (with very few tweaks), being around for years, (Mini 21-years).

BMC's A-series engine, in various forms, was in production for almost 50-years. Can you imagine the manufacturers today, having the same engines around for much more than a model cycle?

I agree with you. Everything is disposable. Nothing is built to last. It's all about the here and now, not the tomorrow.

And how do we pay for these things? Debt and credit. And then we buy more new things we don't need before we've paid off the last one.

Sorry, gone off topic here.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by TouringPleb

Sorry, gone off topic here.

I don't think you have, it is a big part of what influences the current crop of cars we have offered us.

Cars are becoming as much fashion and life style statements, as clothes and accessories used to be. The Bank Manager would not have approved of such a waste of money.

Take a lot of the latest wheels BMW offer, not at all practical, or long lasting. Fancy diamond cut wheels, they don't belong on cars intended to be driven for over 10-years.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Lobb

Is that not due to increasing pressure from the leglislators, rather than customer demand?

I agree it is not as simple as saying customer demand, but there is a constant cry from the customer base for the next "improved", "more powerful" option. Then there is the stats' race, who gets to 60mph 0.1 seconds faster than the competition.

[dbramley]

I said before on here but got shot down, the number of pre-reg BMW’s dealers have been registering over the last couple of years to meet sales targets have been massive, this to me signals something is wrong.

New X1 is a huge improvement and should be doing well but I don’t see many of them. Old X1 was pants.
New X3 should have been a major update but looks more like a facelift.
New X2 out next year, will that sell?
New X5 rumoured to be released next 18 months, should do well.
New X7, from what I’ve seen looks one heck of an ugly thing.
1 Series, ugly, facelift helped a little... new model can’t come soon enough.
3 Series, feels dated, the fact nearly everyone on here add’s m-performance bits to make it look half decent tells you it’s no looker
5 Series, another evolution design like the X3, not good enough I don’t think.

As it happens I don’t care for MB models but the A-Class and C-Class is hugely popular.

Audi seems to be everywhere at the moment, they do look and feel more premium to me. They’ve got a new A6, A7, Q3, Q8 and E-Tron over the next year!