[Alex09_335]

Hi,

I'm working on upgrading my stock transmission housing To a dogbox. Will buying straight cut gears with dog engagement inside a n54 manual transmission housing for direct bolt-on replacement on stock drivetrain. Contacted a few companies that produce drop in kits like Pfitzner and Samsonas. Both don't currently have kits available for the non M E90's.

Pfitzner Performance Gearboxes does design and manufacture custom gear sets for any car and will most likely be the company I end up purchasing my kit from.

If you are interested in upgrading to a performance transmission capable of track, drag, daily driving, and no lift/clutch shifting. We can try to set up a group buy with the MFG and make it more economical. This would also be way more economical then using universal complete assembly sequential or H pattern dogbox's which would also require clutch/flywheel and drivetrain mods to install.

If your car doesn't go to the track occasionally this is not the right transmission for you, straight cut gears whine decently loud like a race car trans. They are ideal for turbocharged applications, since you don't lose boost between shifts because the clutch is not required and can shift under engine load . Shift speeds are also dramatically improved to near instant gear changes.

Pfitzner demo video
https://youtu.be/n_1jO64tuQA

For a dual use track car best bet would be to only swap gears 1-4 to straight cut and keep 5 & 6 helical or 1-5 straight and 6 helical. This will remove the whine while at cruising speeds.

Noise level from dogbox (extreme example car stripped from sound deading material and driven hard)

https://youtu.be/H98vSNz6vrw

Nissan windows up noise level

https://youtu.be/a-k3YAjIQzI

Subaru windows down

https://youtu.be/UzchdzkBkzQ

Hopefully I'll have more information within a week or two.

[Aus335iguy]

I was wondering when someone would try, good on you for having a crack.

[Alex09_335]

Yeah it's surprising there arn't kits out for N54 yet. I know of several local N52 E90s in Toronto with dogs but the gearboxs are complete samsonas assemblies. Quite a bit more involved then just changing gearsets, and if the cars interior is not stripped/caged I doubt you can intigrate the complete assembly to work with a stock centre console.

It blows my mind that there are readily available dog gearsets for Ford, Subaru, Nissan, Audi, Porsche Toyota, but none for the non M e90s. Even VW has them available lol, meanwhile we have +700hp N54's running around on syncros or automatics.

[vtl]

The gearbox from an e92 M3 is a ZF GS6-53BZ and an n54 gearbox is a ZF GS6-53BZ

They have differnt part numbers but thats mainly due to the M3 gearbox being externally oil cooled. On the side of the non M gearbox all the bungs are still there, just plugged off with caps.

They have the same ratios so I doubt they're any different internally.

A dogbox would be great on the track with a flatshift device, straight cut gears would sound glorious as well.

[Alex09_335]

Originally Posted by vtl

The gearbox from an e92 M3 is a ZF GS6-53BZ and an n54 gearbox is a ZF GS6-53BZ

They have differnt part numbers but thats mainly due to the M3 gearbox being externally oil cooled. On the side of the non M gearbox all the bungs are still there, just plugged off with caps.

They have the same ratios so I doubt they're any different internally.

A dogbox would be great on the track with a flatshift device, straight cut gears would sound glorious as well.

You know I was exploring the similarities of the m3 and non m transmissions, I pulled the diagrams saw the housings mounting bolt pattern/shape didn't match and didn't dig any further..

If they are internally the same that would awsome, saves a lot of money sending a transmission out to Pfitzner for their shop to use designing the gear set.

Samsonas already produces a drop in set for the M3 box. They specify M3 so possibly they know of a reason why it wouldn't work in a non M. If both transmissions do in fact have the same shaft diameter I can't see why they wouldn't work on both.

[dyezak]

Pfitzner Boxes can hit a 45ms shift speed. And the price for a drop in kit are already at $19,000. How much is a custom solution going to cost?

Interesting you aren't going with the existing Getrag bolt in that has been proven to hold 1200hp and shifts at 80ms. Cost is roughly half of a Pfitzner.

[sirdaft1]

Hmmm. Interesting. Would be curious to hear more. Considering a DCT swap down the road on the 335 race car. Curious as to how this setup would compare in overall cost to a DCT swap.

[Alex09_335]

Originally Posted by dyezak

Pfitzner Boxes can hit a 45ms shift speed. And the price for a drop in kit are already at $19,000. How much is a custom solution going to cost?

Interesting you aren't going with the existing Getrag bolt in that has been proven to hold 1200hp and shifts at 80ms. Cost is roughly half of a Pfitzner.

Hard to judge pricing based on other vehicles transmissions but most of their gear sets are in the 8-10k range. The sequential sets are closer to the 20k mark. PPG is definitely at the higher end on pricing since from other brands they have gear sets from 7k up. Pfitzner first caught my eye since they advertise making gears for any application, but I have found a few other shops that do the same and equivalent products seem to be cheaper then PPG.

The zf or 265 getrag bolt ons won't exactly just bolt ons the e90. The whole drivetrain, clutch, flywheel will need to be customized. At that point might as well use a universal race transmission with adaptor plate. Samsonas has a few options, think the universal sequential is around the 10k mark. I want an H pattern since I like shifting and it's better suited for the street then a sequential would be.

I would rather keep my modifications inside the transmission housing, seems much simpler. If something happens to the cars frame can pull the transimission and swap into a new chassis with minimal headache.

[dyezak]

Originally Posted by Alex09_335

Hard to judge pricing based on other vehicles transmissions but most of their gear sets are in the 8-10k range. The sequential sets are closer to the 20k mark. PPG is definitely at the higher end on pricing since from other brands they have gear sets from 7k up. Pfitzner first caught my eye since they advertise making gears for any application, but I have found a few other shops that do the same and equivalent products seem to be cheaper then PPG.

The zf or 265 getrag bolt ons won't exactly just bolt ons the e90. The whole drivetrain, clutch, flywheel will need to be customized. At that point might as well use a universal race transmission with adaptor plate. Samsonas has a few options, think the universal sequential is around the 10k mark. I want an H pattern since I like shifting and it's better suited for the street then a sequential would be.

I would rather keep my modifications inside the transmission housing, seems much simpler. If something happens to the cars frame can pull the transimission and swap into a new chassis with minimal headache.

You do know the getrag is literally a straight bolt on for the e90 right? And it was offered by BMW on the e90 overseas. New clutches in it, a new hydraulic pump, and external cooling all together for that box is less than $10k, and that gives you 1200hp holding capacity.

I think you're trying to reinvent the wheel.

[Aus335iguy]

Originally Posted by dyezak

You do know the getrag is literally a straight bolt on for the e90 right? And it was offered by BMW on the e90 overseas. New clutches in it, a new hydraulic pump, and external cooling all together for that box is less than $10k, and that gives you 1200hp holding capacity.

I think you're trying to reinvent the wheel.

Which getrag?

[Alex09_335]

Originally Posted by dyezak

You do know the getrag is literally a straight bolt on for the e90 right? And it was offered by BMW on the e90 overseas. New clutches in it, a new hydraulic pump, and external cooling all together for that box is less than $10k, and that gives you 1200hp holding capacity.

I think you're trying to reinvent the wheel.

Just searched all manual transmissions for euro/NA that went into the N54 E90. Can't find anything like what your talking about. Litterally the only manual transmission from getrag I can find that can handle that kind of power is the V160/161 from the Toyota supra.

Post a source for this information, or the model # for this E90 drop in.

[sirdaft1]

Originally Posted by dyezak

You do know the getrag is literally a straight bolt on for the e90 right? And it was offered by BMW on the e90 overseas. New clutches in it, a new hydraulic pump, and external cooling all together for that box is less than $10k, and that gives you 1200hp holding capacity.

I think you're trying to reinvent the wheel.

Are you talking about Getrag DCT's?

[dyezak]

Originally Posted by sirdaft1

Are you talking about Getrag DCT's?

Correct, the Getrag DCT (twin sequential). Same transmission is used in the M5, M3, 335is, 335i (overseas option), M1, 135i, Ferrari LaFerrari, and (I think) the Mercedes SLS AMG. Hell, you have M5's pushing this thing into the 9's already with only an upgraded clutch. If this tranny can hold the weight and torque of an M5 pushing itself down the 1/4mi in 9sec there is not a single road race car out there that will stress it.

Cooling would be more important in a road race car, but there are at least a half a dozen kits out there for that already.

Just grab one of these boxes off ebay for $2000, get an M4 flywheel for $900, and have the full SSP build done on the box for $7500 add the heavy duty coolant package for $2000 and you have a rock solid box that will shift constantly at 80ms every single shift all day long. I mean, this would be overkill, you wouldn't need the full SSP build but hey!, you're already talking about throwing around tens of thousands of dollars for a custom transmission so...

All bolt in.

Video is a slightly slower 10.1sec run on this trans:

https://youtu.be/wq6D2noRJik

[dyezak]

Oh yea, and all from a transmission that has no gear whine, can be thrown into full auto mode, or shifted manually.

Dog boxes have their place, but I'm not seeing a single benefit over the DCT in this situation...especially for the cost.

Another thing to consider is replacement parts. A race car isn't exactly easy on drivetrain parts. What happens when your custom fancy straight cut gearset has a problem and you need replacement parts? More custom work....more wait times....etc.

This option is readily available and can be sourced in the secondary market too.

[Aus335iguy]

Ive got one and i know theyre good. It?s a getrag 7 speed dct yes but its different to the laferrari and sls boxes. The one in the M5 is the BG version and the M3 and 335i/s share the SG version.

1200 hp though is proven through the BG version as you said. I wouldn?t bet on that thing lasting long at that level but if your running a tuned M5 ...replacement may not be an issue..

[Alex09_335]

Originally Posted by dyezak

Correct, the Getrag DCT (twin sequential). Same transmission is used in the M5, M3, 335is, 335i (overseas option), M1, 135i, Ferrari LaFerrari, and (I think) the Mercedes SLS AMG. Hell, you have M5's pushing this thing into the 9's already with only an upgraded clutch. If this tranny can hold the weight and torque of an M5 pushing itself down the 1/4mi in 9sec there is not a single road race car out there that will stress it.

Cooling would be more important in a road race car, but there are at least a half a dozen kits out there for that already.

Just grab one of these boxes off ebay for $2000, get an M4 flywheel for $900, and have the full SSP build done on the box for $7500 add the heavy duty coolant package for $2000 and you have a rock solid box that will shift constantly at 80ms every single shift all day long. I mean, this would be overkill, you wouldn't need the full SSP build but hey!, you're already talking about throwing around tens of thousands of dollars for a custom transmission so...

All bolt in.

Video is a slightly slower 10.1sec run on this trans:

https://youtu.be/wq6D2noRJik

Yeah that's an automatic and not just going to bolt onto a manual transmission E90s. There's bound to be software and control modules behind the scenes that make that work.

Once an install like that is don't you will be in the same ballpark or higher then getting a real race transmission. There's no point swapping for a DCT E90, better off selling your car and just buying one with DCT factory installed. Same deal with people who switch from auto to manual trans. It's just not worth it.

I would never drive an automatic regardless, DCT fits that bill.

[Alex09_335]

Originally Posted by dyezak

Oh yea, and all from a transmission that has no gear whine, can be thrown into full auto mode, or shifted manually.

Dog boxes have their place, but I'm not seeing a single benefit over the DCT in this situation...especially for the cost.

Another thing to consider is replacement parts. A race car isn't exactly easy on drivetrain parts. What happens when your custom fancy straight cut gearset has a problem and you need replacement parts? More custom work....more wait times....etc.

This option is readily available and can be sourced in the secondary market too.

Once the initial gear set is designed the rest are like any other replacement gears. It's the first gearbox that needs design work, the rest are produced in a fraction of the time and cost since the CNC tooling would be set.

I haven't heard of any touring cars killing their dog boxes. The gear sets and shift forks are much stronger then any factory part. Even the stock E90 manual survives the track just fine. I'm sure the car would be trash before the dogbox.

Reliability wise the DCT would be far worse, can't repair that tranny, it's just a straight swap if it bites the dust, not cheap either. That's a 13000$ gearbox and and I'm sure the remans arnt much better. Then finding someone who can program and install all the necessary ancillary electronics, modules, ect it's probably a $20k job all said and done. No point swapping when readily available cars are for sale with them already installed from the factory.

[sirdaft1]

Originally Posted by dyezak

You do know the getrag is literally a straight bolt on for the e90 right? And it was offered by BMW on the e90 overseas. New clutches in it, a new hydraulic pump, and external cooling all together for that box is less than $10k, and that gives you 1200hp holding capacity.

I think you're trying to reinvent the wheel.

Originally Posted by Alex09_335

Yeah that's an automatic and not just going to bolt onto a manual transmission E90s. There's bound to be software and control modules behind the scenes that make that work.

Once an install like that is don't you will be in the same ballpark or higher then getting a real race transmission. There's no point swapping for a DCT E90, better off selling your car and just buying one with DCT factory installed. Same deal with people who switch from auto to manual trans. It's just not worth it.

I would never drive an automatic regardless, DCT fits that bill.

Originally Posted by Alex09_335

Once the initial gear set is designed the rest are like any other replacement gears. It's the first gearbox that needs design work, the rest are produced in a fraction of the time and cost since the CNC tooling would be set.

I haven't heard of any touring cars killing their dog boxes. The gear sets and shift forks are much stronger then any factory part. Even the stock E90 manual survives the track just fine. I'm sure the car would be trash before the dogbox.

Reliability wise the DCT would be far worse, can't repair that tranny, it's just a straight swap if it bites the dust, not cheap either. That's a 13000$ gearbox and and I'm sure the remans arnt much better. Then finding someone who can program and install all the necessary ancillary electronics, modules, ect it's probably a $20k job all said and done. No point swapping when readily available cars are for sale with them already installed from the factory.

Not at all. A number of guys have done the DCT swap on the 335. IIRC a few years ago, all in for the swap was between $8-10k. Prices have come down a bit since then. Search eBay and you'll find 2439347123098432 used DCT's that bolt right up for $1200 - $2500. Add in $3500 for an upgraded Dodson clutch kit and another couple grand for ancillary items to make the swap. Call it $7k - $9k and you could have a VERY potent setup (we're considering doing this in our 335 build).

[Aus335iguy]

Originally Posted by sirdaft1

Not at all. A number of guys have done the DCT swap on the 335. IIRC a few years ago, all in for the swap was between $8-10k. Prices have come down a bit since then. Search eBay and you'll find 2439347123098432 used DCT's that bolt right up for $1200 - $2500. Add in $3500 for an upgraded Dodson clutch kit and another couple grand for ancillary items to make the swap. Call it $7k - $9k and you could have a VERY potent setup (we're considering doing this in our 335 build).

If youre going for aftermarket DME then this and a syvecs ecu will give a better than average result.. Better engine tuning and infinitely better control of the gearbox. in my humble opinion it?s *THE WAY TO GO. *if you have the money

[Alex09_335]

Originally Posted by sirdaft1

Not at all. A number of guys have done the DCT swap on the 335. IIRC a few years ago, all in for the swap was between $8-10k. Prices have come down a bit since then. Search eBay and you'll find 2439347123098432 used DCT's that bolt right up for $1200 - $2500. Add in $3500 for an upgraded Dodson clutch kit and another couple grand for ancillary items to make the swap. Call it $7k - $9k and you could have a VERY potent setup (we're considering doing this in our 335 build).

Nothing came up with that part number. Searched the ones off realoem and other then one eBay listing for a used with no info that was under 2k the rest were closer to 10k after core exchange.

I wouldn't buy a DCT regardless, I'm either going for the Samsonas universal H pattern 6 speed dogbox which costs $5500. Or the PPG kit if I can put together an order of +10 kits to make the $25000 prototype/design cost for the first unit worth it.

[Aus335iguy]

Originally Posted by Alex09_335

Nothing came up with that part number. Searched the ones off realoem and other then one eBay listing for a used with no info that was under 2k the rest were closer to 10k after core exchange.

I wouldn't buy a DCT regardless, I'm either going for the Samsonas universal H pattern 6 speed dogbox which costs $5500. Or the PPG kit if I can put together an order of +10 kits to make the $25000 prototype/design cost for the first unit worth it.

I just found at least half a dozen just on eBay - But its not the point. The OP really wants a manual and there are a number of options for it. Personally i love the sound of straight cut gears too and would(if $ permitted) have one just for that fact alone

The DCTs are great too - Launch control being my favourite party trick.

Good luck with the project mate ! Post some pics and vids when you make it happen!

[Mit_Boost]

If you're serious about a dogbox conversion, have you tried contacting VAC Motorsports yet? In addition, I can't imagine the OEM DME playing very nice with a dogbox. The $20k dogbox conversion will probably turn into a $30k project when you end up converting to a Syvecs in the end.

That said, I agree with others and would suggest investing the DCT conversion and maybe even combining it with the Syvecs (probably still less than the dogbox alone). The Syvecs will help you have much more control over everything, in particular the DCT. Just look at how effective it's been on the R35 GTR and TT Huracans.