[AndyMD]

I have had my fair share of dealings with the NHS over the last 40 odd years, but haven’t recently until last weekend. The last time I stayed in hospital was 15 years old with meningitis and I must admit the whole experience while extremely frightening was, let’s say, a professional one from the ambulance ride to discharge. Had a slight blimp in the middle as I was due for scans but as it was a weekend, it had to wait for the Monday, which was worrying for those close to me.

However, on Sunday I got a call that most middle-aged mummy’s boy dread. My sister was on the phone telling me my 77-year-old Mum has had a nasty fall and was lying on a pavement waiting for an Ambulance. A quick ask regarding injuries and it looked like 2 broken wrists and a dislocated shoulder. However she has osteoporosis and I had a feeling it could be worse. Somewhat luckily, she fell near a care home and a nurse came out with blankets and comforted mum. A call back to my sister 20 mins later asking for an update and I was answered with ‘we are still waiting for an ambulance’. Another 15 mins past and another phone call, ‘Nope we are still waiting’ and I could hear how distressed by Mum was in the background. A police car had stopped by and asked about the situation but left when a call came. A good number of people were now with my Mum including nephews, so I left it another 15 mins to call back. Nope still no ambulance. In fact when an ambulance did arrive it was from 35 miles away and it was a St John ambulance subbed to the local hospital authority and it was 1 hour 40 mins from the first 999 call. Couldn’t fault the paramedics from St John’s but the immediately diagnosed a fractured hip as Mum’s leg was shorter and rotated on one side. Once I know the Mum was in the back, I was off to meet them at the hospital.

I got there just as the back door were opening to be greeted by the paramedic and my Mum looking in a very back way. Her wrist was pointing in the wrong direction, her hips were out of line with her body and now her top had been cut off, her shoulder was just hanging there.

A&E was full, no bays. In fact the area in front of the nurses station and a double door way into another department were being used to hold patients. 5 other ambulances were waiting outside. Apparently before they can go off to their next call the patient needs to be handed over, however, if there are no spaces for the patient to go into, the ambulance can’t leave. So we spent another hour in the corridor waiting for a bay. Mum still in agony as it’s just gas and air the paramedics can provide no further full pain relief.

Once in a bay you can’t fault the staff, obviously very overworked and always focused, I really don’t know how they do it for 12 hours straight.

It was then the usual, off to x ray, bloods, IV line etc. After we were told that Mum had 4 breaks in her shoulder, broken wrist and fractured hip. It was now 4 hours after the 999 call and she was just receiving her first pain medication through the IV. Still couldn’t fault the staff, super lovely and explained everything. The consultant received my mums X rays etc by WhatsApp as it was a Sunday and he was not in the hospital. A couple of examinations from other doctors and they thought it would be best to transfer her to another hospital 30 miles away so all operations could be done in one go. Unfortunately, no beds were available, so it was a night in the hospital and options would be relooked at in the morning.

The next morning it was decided to operate at this hospital, we weren’t told how many ops she would need, it was a case of lets just see how we get on. She spent 6 hours in theatre and came back with a few more bits then she went in with. A brand new shoulder, a pinned wrist and 2 screws in her hip. We were allowed to see her in recovery for 5 mins on Monday night and considering what she has been through, didn’t look too bad. Only problem was no beds yet for her to go back to.

Yesterday morning and we heard she was back on a ward and between us worked out when we could go and see her. Again, on first viewing she was looking OK, more worried about her facebook page then her injuries. Her nurse said that she would catch up with us soon, but again she was so busy but always so professional. After chatting to Mum for a bit, she wasn’t quite right. Repeating things that she has said 5 – 10 mins ago, getting confused about the people next to her, but as she was on morphine, I thought it was the drugs talking. But on leaving last night, I mentioned it to the nurse and she said the drugs shouldn’t make her confused and assured me the doctor will be round later and he’ll have a good look.

Home last night and got a call from the ward, mum’s got an infection, a very high temperature and having antibiotics pumped in ASAP, common they tell me after a long op.

I have heard stories over the last 5 years how bad it’s getting, but this is the first time that I have witnessed it first hand and it’s made me very fearful of the future. The people are fantastic, however the system is broken. Our local hospital hasn’t has any expansion of wards for well over 15 years, however the local population has grown with new houses and lot’s of European workers in the country side. But I can’t see any easy fix, it’s going to continue to get worse.

Has anyone else had experience like this, is this now common place? Has anyone undertaken private health care and is that system significantly better? I’m starting to think, sod playing sky £80 per month I think I would like insurance instead.

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by AndyMD

I have heard stories over the last 5 years how bad it’s getting, but this is the first time that I have witnessed it first hand and it’s made me very fearful of the future. The people are fantastic, however the system is broken. Our local hospital hasn’t has any expansion of wards for well over 15 years, however the local population has grown with new houses and lot’s of European workers in the country side. But I can’t see any easy fix, it’s going to continue to get worse.

Really sorry to hear of your mum's situation and hope she makes a good recovery.

I fear the issues will only increase regardless of what immigration does or how many new houses we have. The reality is we have a increasingly elderly population, who require more and more resources as the get older, and manage with multiple co-morbidities. So add that to the fact that every year a higher proportion of us will be "elderly" then it's an impending disaster coming our way.

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by Lobb

Is private health care worth it? Yes. But it won't help for emergency cases.

Completely agree. What it helps you do is get to see a specialist almost immediately, and if you need an operation or treatment then you can get that much quicker too.

And when you have that operation or procedure it's often in a much nicer environment.

[Kal101]

Sorry to hear about your experience and hope your mum makes a speedy and complete recovery

Lot of issues there and am glad to see some one NOT blaming the NHS and its staff.

Problem is we have an ageing population and a lot of people who regard A+E as a walk in centre. I see it all the time - patient presents with minor symptoms demanding antibiotics etcetc and when we advise them they don't need anything or refer to their GP quite a few times the response is - right we will go to A+E.

It's easy to blame increased migration and yes this probably is a contributory factor but probably not a major one - just think how many ambulances etc were full of migrants ?

The real issues are a lot more complex and are more related to reduced funding and increased costs ( ageing population, higher cost treatments, greater expectations , abuse of the system and yes migration not to forget medical tourists ) .

Each year NHS departments are required to make cost improvements - savings .

Healthcare is and always will be a bottomless money pit.

As regards private healthcare it has its role - it does reduce the strain on the NHS as does patient going abroad for their treatments. However unlike the NHS these guys are running a buisiness and as said above great for chronic treatment ( upto a point - when Mrs worked in an NHS hospital down the road from a private hospital at least weekly they would have a patient transferred over as they didn't have the equipment etc to deal when procedures went wrong and would literally dial 999) for acute you can't beat the NHS.

Whole lot needs reviewing and tightening up but it's a major task and probably political suicide.

[isleaiw1]

Sorry to hear of your mum's fall, with an 82 year old mum I know your concerns....

Not quite the same but my wife had treatment in 2010 when she was seriously ill and again in 2015 with similar complaint but more advanced. I think the care she hot second time was worse than first - I wondered if it was because she was past the point of no return but the more I think about it the more I think it was because they just didn't have the resources available......

Hope your mum makes a full recovery in good time.

[AndyMD]

Cheers for the good wishes and for sharing. Not moaning at all about the immigration, they are an important part of our local economy and paying their taxes. I think the cuts have gone too deep and I can't see a way back or any quick fixes. No matter how much money you through, it needs investment in building new wards and staffing them.

The A and E had bays 14 bays, plus the 2 extra places they were using and there were a minimum of 3 waiting in corridors. It just wasn't big enough and this was early afternoon on a Sunday. This meant 3 ambulances were 'out of service'.

Just a bit in shock about how poor it's got

[nickcuprar]

Originally Posted by AndyMD

I have had my fair share of dealings with the NHS over the last 40 odd years, but haven’t recently until last weekend. The last time I stayed in hospital was 15 years old with meningitis and I must admit the whole experience while extremely frightening was, let’s say, a professional one from the ambulance ride to discharge. Had a slight blimp in the middle as I was due for scans but as it was a weekend, it had to wait for the Monday, which was worrying for those close to me.

However, on Sunday I got a call that most middle-aged mummy’s boy dread. My sister was on the phone telling me my 77-year-old Mum has had a nasty fall and was lying on a pavement waiting for an Ambulance. A quick ask regarding injuries and it looked like 2 broken wrists and a dislocated shoulder. However she has osteoporosis and I had a feeling it could be worse. Somewhat luckily, she fell near a care home and a nurse came out with blankets and comforted mum. A call back to my sister 20 mins later asking for an update and I was answered with ‘we are still waiting for an ambulance’. Another 15 mins past and another phone call, ‘Nope we are still waiting’ and I could hear how distressed by Mum was in the background. A police car had stopped by and asked about the situation but left when a call came. A good number of people were now with my Mum including nephews, so I left it another 15 mins to call back. Nope still no ambulance. In fact when an ambulance did arrive it was from 35 miles away and it was a St John ambulance subbed to the local hospital authority and it was 1 hour 40 mins from the first 999 call. Couldn’t fault the paramedics from St John’s but the immediately diagnosed a fractured hip as Mum’s leg was shorter and rotated on one side. Once I know the Mum was in the back, I was off to meet them at the hospital.

I got there just as the back door were opening to be greeted by the paramedic and my Mum looking in a very back way. Her wrist was pointing in the wrong direction, her hips were out of line with her body and now her top had been cut off, her shoulder was just hanging there.

A&E was full, no bays. In fact the area in front of the nurses station and a double door way into another department were being used to hold patients. 5 other ambulances were waiting outside. Apparently before they can go off to their next call the patient needs to be handed over, however, if there are no spaces for the patient to go into, the ambulance can’t leave. So we spent another hour in the corridor waiting for a bay. Mum still in agony as it’s just gas and air the paramedics can provide no further full pain relief.

Once in a bay you can’t fault the staff, obviously very overworked and always focused, I really don’t know how they do it for 12 hours straight.

It was then the usual, off to x ray, bloods, IV line etc. After we were told that Mum had 4 breaks in her shoulder, broken wrist and fractured hip. It was now 4 hours after the 999 call and she was just receiving her first pain medication through the IV. Still couldn’t fault the staff, super lovely and explained everything. The consultant received my mums X rays etc by WhatsApp as it was a Sunday and he was not in the hospital. A couple of examinations from other doctors and they thought it would be best to transfer her to another hospital 30 miles away so all operations could be done in one go. Unfortunately, no beds were available, so it was a night in the hospital and options would be relooked at in the morning.

The next morning it was decided to operate at this hospital, we weren’t told how many ops she would need, it was a case of lets just see how we get on. She spent 6 hours in theatre and came back with a few more bits then she went in with. A brand new shoulder, a pinned wrist and 2 screws in her hip. We were allowed to see her in recovery for 5 mins on Monday night and considering what she has been through, didn’t look too bad. Only problem was no beds yet for her to go back to.

Yesterday morning and we heard she was back on a ward and between us worked out when we could go and see her. Again, on first viewing she was looking OK, more worried about her facebook page then her injuries. Her nurse said that she would catch up with us soon, but again she was so busy but always so professional. After chatting to Mum for a bit, she wasn’t quite right. Repeating things that she has said 5 – 10 mins ago, getting confused about the people next to her, but as she was on morphine, I thought it was the drugs talking. But on leaving last night, I mentioned it to the nurse and she said the drugs shouldn’t make her confused and assured me the doctor will be round later and he’ll have a good look.

Home last night and got a call from the ward, mum’s got an infection, a very high temperature and having antibiotics pumped in ASAP, common they tell me after a long op.

I have heard stories over the last 5 years how bad it’s getting, but this is the first time that I have witnessed it first hand and it’s made me very fearful of the future. The people are fantastic, however the system is broken. Our local hospital hasn’t has any expansion of wards for well over 15 years, however the local population has grown with new houses and lot’s of European workers in the country side. But I can’t see any easy fix, it’s going to continue to get worse.

Has anyone else had experience like this, is this now common place? Has anyone undertaken private health care and is that system significantly better? I’m starting to think, sod playing sky £80 per month I think I would like insurance instead.

Sorry to hear about your mum and I wish her a full recovery.

I work for a private healthcare company that provides goods to the NHS in the trauma sector. It all comes down to two problems with the NHS, too many people to treat and not enough staff to do it and it's only heading in one direction.

My local hospital at ward level roughly 50% of staff are from European countries and now due to Brexit the trust has a big issue trying to recruit new nurses. European nurses use to see the NHS as the pinnacle of healthcare. If you worked for the NHS you were seen to be trained by the best. With the dire straits it is in and now Brexit nurses arnt keen to come over more and they are leaving faster than teachers ( don't get me started on that one)

With an ageing population with no one to pay their pensions they can't afford healthcare. Having said that there is a local scheme in my area where (rich) pensioners are letting Asian nurses live with them for free In return for caring for them. There is an issue around employment rights etc so this might be stoped before it really takes off

For the ambulance to arrive in the time it did is appalling and I work closely with my local Ambulance service and they admit they can't hit the 8 minute target. The reason they take on first responders (volunteers) is solely to hit that target but all the first responder can do is give oxygen but it sounds as though a first responder didn't get their either

Either way the NHS is fucked.

Stay fit, and don't get diabetes!

[320dAsh]

The people who work for the NHS are fantastic. The problem is - the NHS is skint. I say put up national insurance - for all of us.
Health insurance is OK but they use the same surgeons. If there are complications after an operation in a private hospital, good luck because they can't rush you into theatre...well, they can, but there will be nobody there.

[TouringPleb]

The wait for the ambulance is something we experience every day. Pretty much every time we call for one from a RTC to someone self harming or an elderly person who has fell, we always get the same reply "yeah ambo are stacking. No eta."

Back in January I attended a RTC on one of the coldest nights of the year. Middle of no-where. Lady in her 60s had been knocked off her scooter. By the time I arrived she'd been laying on a cold road for about 30 mins. Ambo had been called already. It took another 2 hours before an ambulance arrived, every time they allocated one it got diverted to a higher priority. In the end the poor lady was so cold I thought she'd get hyperthermia. When they do arrive the paramedics are brilliant it's just takes them so long to arrive nowadays.

What's the answer? I don't know. It seems the more money that gets poured into the NHS is just swallowed up. I certainly don't buy the argument it's immigration. Most immigrants I see are aged late teens to early 30s, put little demand on the NHS and pay taxes.

What I do see is the same people again and again using the NHS, alcoholics, drug users, people with mental health illness but don't take their medication or attend appointments, who contribute little in way of taxes paid, but demand ambulances, and treatment.

[MarkG_M5Comp]

It's not going to get better anytime soon I'm afraid.

As someone who spends a large proportion of their time working in and around the NHS I can say that all the time wards are closing and bed numbers are reducing, it's going to get worse.

I hope your mum goes from strength to strength now but do keep an eye on the infections - as a family we have experience of urinary tract infections being the downfall of my grandmother as she just didn't recover properly in the end. YOU make sure she's drinking plenty - the staff won't, YOU take her favourite food in to keep her healthy. YOU make sure she's given the proper profiling mattress or dynamic pressure relieving mattress and that the nurses are trained to use it properly. Otherwise she will get bed sores and the infections will spiral out of control.

Make sure she's not allowed to bed block. As soon as she's fit enough, get her out... the reason A&E was full, that there was no bed on the ward and that theatre time scheduling is an issue is because of a) wards being closed and b) hospitals can't get people out quick enough - there's no social care in existence any more. It not good for the NHS and not good for patient.

Summary: don't be afraid to challenge and take charge, for your mum's sake.

All the best.

[dobbo99]

Sorry to hear about your mum, I'm getting nearer that point with mine.
Sad thing for her is she was a nurse, that put 35years service into the NHS and I'm bitter as she won't recieve the same care that she gave so many people over the years as the system has now changed.

The money is in the wrong place, and the same people place too much of a strain (addicts, mental health etc) but then we should have had systems in place to help those people earlier in their troubled lives.

Working with the NHS day in, day out I agree with most comments on the thread in that the nurses, doctors, carers etc etc are simply phenomenal human beings and they certainly have my support.

[willjames]

Love the NHS.

They have saved my life and I've had loads of treatment and 2 x stem cell transplants at the cost of at least a couple of hundred thousand pounds.

I can't fault it and would certainly be very happy to pay more in taxes or NI to help.

[FSE23]

Sorry to hear about your Mum, hope she is getting better. NHS situation is more complex. If you look into A&E admission data you would see a huge increase in number in the last couple of years. Why you would ask, are people getting sicker or just abuse the system?
Too many people found easier way of getting any treatment by coming to A&E rather than to see a GP. Ageing population is a huge factor too. On the other hand NHS is grossly underfunded comparing to other EU countries.
But immigrants are rather young and healthy and they usualy don't go to hospital at all. They just want to work, and are afraid of getting sick and losing a job.

[Consett Mag]

Hi Andy
Hope your mam is able to get up and moving about as quickly as possible. She needs to achieve some mobility asap. Sounds a proper fall she's had.

There are some excellent posts above about the strain the NHS feels. I work as a specialist nurse in a district general hospital in North East England, and we really do feel the pressures that an ageing population and lack of social care has reduced our clinical response to, from the ambulance response times, waiting for beds, to rehab and good rehab options.

The simple truth is that we as a country spend less per capita on a major health service than many of our European countrymen do. IMO the tories are running it into the ground in order to drive through private finance /ownership deals to transform our health service into a mainly business model. I hope I'm wrong, as the elderly, who need it massively more than the young population, will IMO be essentially priced out due to their risks of needing regular expensive treatments.

In response to the Nick, who works for a private healthcare provider, the NHS is NOT f*cked! Yes it's on its knees but we persevere with the resources we have.

It's fair to say that I'm worried about the direction that the NHS is heading. The gigantic costs of PCP deals for new buildings will last many years and are devastating the capital we have to treat ever increasing numbers of patients.

[NISFAN]

Sorry to hear about your mum. She sounds like a tough lady, enduring all that and staying in good spirits. Hoping for a speedy recovery.

[Kal101]

Originally Posted by TouringPleb

The wait for the ambulance is something we experience every day. Pretty much every time we call for one from a RTC to someone self harming or an elderly person who has fell, we always get the same reply "yeah ambo are stacking. No eta."

Back in January I attended a RTC on one of the coldest nights of the year. Middle of no-where. Lady in her 60s had been knocked off her scooter. By the time I arrived she'd been laying on a cold road for about 30 mins. Ambo had been called already. It took another 2 hours before an ambulance arrived, every time they allocated one it got diverted to a higher priority. In the end the poor lady was so cold I thought she'd get hyperthermia. When they do arrive the paramedics are brilliant it's just takes them so long to arrive nowadays.

What's the answer? I don't know. It seems the more money that gets poured into the NHS is just swallowed up. I certainly don't buy the argument it's immigration. Most immigrants I see are aged late teens to early 30s, put little demand on the NHS and pay taxes.

What I do see is the same people again and again using the NHS, alcoholics, drug users, people with mental health illness but don't take their medication or attend appointments, who contribute little in way of taxes paid, but demand ambulances, and treatment.

Think I've heard the figure of 10% causing 90'% of the calls to emergency services on one of the police programmes on tv - sure you can enlighten us on this.

Agree totally with yours points on inappropriate spend - addicts do seem to have an open purse - seen one guy costing over £1k per week for NO clinical benefit.

Seen a lot of wasteage as well - last week had £1.5k worth of meds returned from 1 patient who then returned two weeks later with another script for the same items.

Not enough accountability and individual responsibility.

[TouringPleb]

Originally Posted by Kal027

Think I've heard the figure of 10% causing 90'% of the calls to emergency services on one of the police programmes on tv - sure you can enlighten us on this.

Agree totally with yours points on inappropriate spend - addicts do seem to have an open purse - seen one guy costing over £1k per week for NO clinical benefit.

Seen a lot of wasteage as well - last week had £1.5k worth of meds returned from 1 patient who then returned two weeks later with another script for the same items.

Not enough accountability and individual responsibility.

I don't know what the figures are but we do deal with the same people again and again and again.

I don't know what the answer is. As a society we can't leave someone who has overdosed on the side of the street, or an alcoholic who has fallen over and hurt themselves. But at the same time they are massive drain on resources whilst contributing nothing. I've been with paramedics where for three hours they tried to talk someone who had badly self-harmed into going to hospital. Three hours that crew could have been dealing with other patients. Three hours two police officers were tied up because it wasn't safe to leave the paramedics there alone. And when they finally talked her into going to hospital, she walks out of A&E before being seen, meaning police are involved again trying to find her and return her.

This will sound harsh but there's alcoholics, drug users, people with mental health issues I know who get offered all the help and support they could need to over come their addictions, whether that be through medication or counselling. People with mental health problems who go to secure units and are treated and as soon as they are released they relapse because they feel they don't need to take their medication. Where do we draw the line with them? Do we draw the line?

And there's the whole bed blocking situation where there's no-where for particularly elderly people to go to who don't need to be in a hospital that at the same time can't manage at home alone.

As I've said, I don't know the answers but I think as a society we need to have an uncomfortable conversation about the NHS, social services etc and what we want from them and how much we are willing to pay for that. I just don't think in another 20-25 years it will be viable in its current format with the demands being placed on it.

[AndyMD]

Originally Posted by Consett Mag

Hi Andy
IMO the tories are running it into the ground in order to drive through private finance /ownership deals to transform our health service into a mainly business model. I hope I'm wrong, as the elderly, who need it massively more than the young population, will IMO be essentially priced out due to their risks of needing regular expensive treatments.

That's what we were debating at work this morning. Want a better service then we need private money.

Thanks for the comment from those of you who are working in or around the NHS. I really take my hat off to you. It's something I know I could never do and feel ashamed to admit.

We need more media coverage like the BBC2 documentary shown earlier this year. I for one would gladly pay extra NI if I new it was going directly to front line care.

Mum is still not really with it, morphine and all of that. I have heard this morning she made it to a chair for a few mins with the physio team this morning, but as you can image the pain is still high.

[creepy coupe]

I've had nigh on two years of travelling to the Kent and Canterbury, William Harvey Ashford, Royal Brompton and Royal Marsden hospital with a family member and can't fault the NHS.

Ironically the only hospital that messed things up big time was the Chaucer in Canterbury and that was a BUPA hospital.

But I realise good healthcare when things are bad in good healthcare and bad is your worst nightmare.

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by AndyMD

We need more media coverage like the BBC2 documentary shown earlier this year. I for one would gladly pay extra NI if I new it was going directly to front line care.

As far as I am aware NI has nothing to do with NHS now - it's just another tax and a very inequitable one at that.

We should have a health tax - with the proceeds ringfenced. Whether that should be on income - which can be avoided by those who don't work or have clever / somewhat dishonest approaches - or spending on unhealthy foods, drinks, etc is another debate. First party to suggest it might find a sudden increase in supporters.

[kzg1969]

my mum has been waiting ages for a hip replacement. My wifes gran had a similar fall and had to go into recuperation - standards not great

earlier this week my wife had to go for breast cancer screening and it was dealt with VERY well. All in one morning, 2scans and fine needle biospsy and results. Great service.

good and bad!