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      10-16-2016, 09:53 PM   #1
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which (if any) JB4 map has the least amount of timing advance?

I will be running a small (35hp wet shot of Nitrous) simultaneously to my Meth injection, and various other effective methods of super cooling my intake air...

My current BEF is being put back to stock, New colder Iridium plugs, and a few other changes will be made to better and more safely run this setup.

I will be running 3 or 4 safe guards aside from the JB4s WOT/ RPM window, min AFR, 1st gear disable, delay to ensure the meth hits the TB before the nitrous and minimal Ignition advance..Even a completely independent fuel system designed to be safe for ethanol, race gas and other exotic fuels...It will be pushing about 50psi of fuel pressure and pull from a 10 gal metal fuel cell in trunk with low fuel sensor NOS solenoid disable and low Fuel Pressure disable...

Now Im guessing Map 7 (Race Gas Map) has the least advance since its designed for detonation prone high boost, leaner AFR (relatively) conditions? And my understanding its adaptive on conditions to run various boost levels, degrees of ignition timing advance/retardation..

Am I corrrect? does the JB4 even directly affect Ign, timing? Is Map 7 the way to go when running Meth Nos combo on about 16-17psi?

If not, how could I retard ignition timing on a non permanent basis? So I can still make decent power while driving on a reg basis?

And while Im at it, question to experienced N55/n54 tuners who have utilized NO2, do the stock coil packs pack enough punch to spark through a mix of cold dense air, 115 octane fuel with an AFR on the richer side, and I'm sure a very high CR?

I know many would be worried about knock but I think i went overkill on the opposite side, obviously I would rather misfire than have an even minor detonation...

Any EXPERT advice, other than non-engineer "Magazine mechanics" typical "n02 will blow your motor" would be extremely appreciated...

However, if you are an expert tech that has a deep understanding of this engine, N02s effect, and my specific setup and see any thing other than the generic response obviously I am not dumb enough to ignore it...

Hopefully some more experiended members can throw in their $.02

Thanks
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      10-17-2016, 03:47 AM   #2
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115 AKI, lower boost, N02 inactive at higher RPM, and extremely low IATs , will there even be a need to retard timing? Also what Air:Fuel Ratio should I aim for with such high octane and a different chemical makeup of the fuel?

Im sure the 02 reading will be different then when reading the byproducts of regular pump gas? Or is there a wide band that can determine the difference and adapt or simply a different target range?

If no one can or wants to answer maybe a link to relevant info that could help?
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      10-17-2016, 03:54 AM   #3
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115 AKI, lower boost, N02 inactive at higher RPM, and extremely low IATs , will there even be a need to retard timing? Also what Air:Fuel Ratio should I aim for with such high octane and a different chemical makeup of the fuel?

Im sure the 02 reading will be different then when reading the byproducts of regular pump gas? Or is there a wide band that can determine the difference and adapt or simply a different target range?

If no one can or wants to answer maybe a link to relevant info that could help?
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      10-17-2016, 04:43 AM   #4
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Asking for deep "expert" advice around advanced tuning from a forum seems like a bad idea. I would suggest you get a respected tuning shop near you involved.


Or just turn everything up to 11.
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      10-17-2016, 01:01 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DKM3Power View Post
I will be running a small (35hp wet shot of Nitrous) simultaneously to my Meth injection, and various other effective methods of super cooling my intake air...

My current BEF is being put back to stock, New colder Iridium plugs, and a few other changes will be made to better and more safely run this setup.

I will be running 3 or 4 safe guards aside from the JB4s WOT/ RPM window, min AFR, 1st gear disable, delay to ensure the meth hits the TB before the nitrous and minimal Ignition advance..Even a completely independent fuel system designed to be safe for ethanol, race gas and other exotic fuels...It will be pushing about 50psi of fuel pressure and pull from a 10 gal metal fuel cell in trunk with low fuel sensor NOS solenoid disable and low Fuel Pressure disable...

Now Im guessing Map 7 (Race Gas Map) has the least advance since its designed for detonation prone high boost, leaner AFR (relatively) conditions? And my understanding its adaptive on conditions to run various boost levels, degrees of ignition timing advance/retardation..

Am I corrrect? does the JB4 even directly affect Ign, timing? Is Map 7 the way to go when running Meth Nos combo on about 16-17psi?

If not, how could I retard ignition timing on a non permanent basis? So I can still make decent power while driving on a reg basis?

And while Im at it, question to experienced N55/n54 tuners who have utilized NO2, do the stock coil packs pack enough punch to spark through a mix of cold dense air, 115 octane fuel with an AFR on the richer side, and I'm sure a very high CR?

I know many would be worried about knock but I think i went overkill on the opposite side, obviously I would rather misfire than have an even minor detonation...

Any EXPERT advice, other than non-engineer "Magazine mechanics" typical "n02 will blow your motor" would be extremely appreciated...

However, if you are an expert tech that has a deep understanding of this engine, N02s effect, and my specific setup and see any thing other than the generic response obviously I am not dumb enough to ignore it...

Hopefully some more experiended members can throw in their $.02

Thanks
You sound like you know what you are doing with tuning but lack knowledge on the JB4 product

I would not recommend you do any changes until you read enough about it. Best place would be the BMS forum.

With the Jb4 you have a custom map which lets you control all the parameters you mentioned in your first post.

Another good option would be to take your car to a tuner experienced with the JB4 and they can do all the changes for you.
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      10-17-2016, 02:27 PM   #6
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A JB4 has no timing control, and relies on the DME's adaptive advance.

For a big turbo, nitrous, etc. you can look into adding the CPS module (if you can find one...it it even F series compatible), or...a better idea, just get a back-end flash.

But the JB4...no timing control.

Terry, back in the day...

Quote:
Like I said via email we've not done any nitrous development for a long time and don't plan to do anything beyond what is already there. My advice is to write a flash map intended for nitrous use and load that map when running nitrous or planning to run nitrous. Using the JB4 nitrous activations to trigger it. I'd keep the shot below a .28 jet and run at least 1500ml/min of meth with it. I'm also not a CPS fan and don't plan to spend any additional time on it's development. I know Shiv is in to it so you may find some luck with him offering something more dynamic if he still offers any nitrous support.

Where I do plan to spend development time in the future is on having the JB4 able to directly reflash the DME directly.
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      10-17-2016, 02:30 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrematureApex View Post
A JB4 has no timing control, and relies on the DME's adaptive advance.

For a big turbo, nitrous, etc. you can look into adding the CPS module, or more probably, a back-end flash from Burger.

But the JB4...no timing control.
Actually the Jb4 can access timing ... It does so by tricking the ECU correct but the end result is altered timing
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      10-17-2016, 02:34 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DivideBYZero View Post
Asking for deep "expert" advice around advanced tuning from a forum seems like a bad idea. I would suggest you get a respected tuning shop near you involved.


Or just turn everything up to 11.
Good advice however I am/was a trained and experienced tuner (professsionally) for years. But I tunes cars I wouldnt consider "tune proofed" my the manufacturer LOL....I would use a laptop, AEM full stand alone, and a load bearing emissions dyno or road tuning to get Japanese cars running well, making power and usuallly sacrifice some peak power & tq for a lower tq curve snd peak HP in the 7500-9500RPM range lol (gotta love simple variable valve timing unlinke this cam phasing system in the N55( Vanos)..
i's, even some TT N54's w Cobb AP...Sometmes Id simpl
Same thing on Evos, sT]y have ro send the ECUS to tuners with my parameters...After I'd fine tune boost, afr, ign, further w a great Apex'i pruduct I forget the name but it was the Apex'I VTEC controller w/o VTEC control...It allowed for multiple maps and only minor tune-ability of injector duty cyle % at specific 1000 or 500 rpm increments...Similar to JB4 mao 5 actually...

But Ive run turbo / nitrous setuos with dozens of cars w incredible gains and daily driveability,,,In fact at 10.2:1 Comp ratio, only Evo, sTi's and built Honda blocks had lower compression ratios.


To adjust IGN timing, we simply set the ECU to a relatively constant advance based on various factors,,then used an ol fashion timing light and turned simply turned the distributer cap forward or back...Im sure many of you remember that LOL...
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      10-17-2016, 02:35 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com View Post
Actually the Jb4 can access timing ... It does so by tricking the ECU correct but the end result is altered timing
?

Since when? It's common knowledge it doesn't, and never has. Unless things have changed with the F series.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
The JB3/JB4 has always used the DME adaptive system to set advance which generally works quite well. It's been used on 7500+ cars over the past four years for tens or hundreds of millions of combined customer driven miles. In some cases if your fuel is particularly bad or if you are trying to tune a large turbo or nitrous car it is beneficial to also use CPS offsetting to cap the maximum advance set points. For that you would get the fully user adjustable JB4 CPS module for $85. It also includes a speed limit defeat.

Mike
That's why they sold the CPS. It's always relied on the stock DME's aggressive curves.

There are many, many threads on the subject.

I mean, did you research this before making this statement? Have a link?
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      10-17-2016, 02:50 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrematureApex View Post
A JB4 has no timing control, and relies on the DME's adaptive advance.

For a big turbo, nitrous, etc. you can look into adding the CPS module (if you can find one...it it even F series compatible), or...a better idea, just get a back-end flash.

But the JB4...no timing control.

Terry, back in the day...
Terry stopped getting involved bc its obvious ability to cause catostrsphic damage...to avoid liability. Most JB4 users should not be touching it,,,however its included for a reason and its a brilliant system,,,,Pin 7 coming out if the uice box only becomed batt gri=ound when all ur all of yiur safety / traction requirements are met...Simply install the FSU and ground your Nitrous and Fuel solenoids to that empty pinout on the JB4...

The BEF sounds good, but I currrently have Enzos 1st ever BEF which ill be removing...all the parameters that will a make the car an animal with N02 engauged will make it wayyyy less powerful as a daily driver, hence the need for changeability....
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      10-17-2016, 02:56 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DKM3Power View Post
Terry stopped getting involved bc its obvious ability to cause catostrsphic damage...to avoid liability. Most JB4 users should not be touching it,,,however its included for a reason and its a brilliant system,,,,Pin 7 coming out if the uice box only becomed batt gri=ound when all ur all of yiur safety / traction requirements are met...Simply install the FSU and ground your Nitrous and Fuel solenoids to that empty pinout on the JB4...

The BEF sounds good, but I currrently have Enzos 1st ever BEF which ill be removing...all the parameters that will a make the car an animal with N02 engauged will make it wayyyy less powerful as a daily driver, hence the need for changeability....
Yup, and that's understandable.

I'm just saying, unless something has changed, the JB4 doesn't (and has never) had the ability to control timing.

I'm not sure if BMS still sells their CPS (or for an N55), which spliced into their JB4 harness for the sake of offsetting timing...

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=497661

Other than that, a BEF is probably your only option.
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      10-17-2016, 03:43 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrematureApex View Post
Yup, and that's understandable.

I'm just saying, unless something has changed, the JB4 doesn't (and has never) had the ability to control timing.

I'm not sure if BMS still sells their CPS (or for an N55), which spliced into their JB4 harness for the sake of offsetting timing...

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=497661

Other than that, a BEF is probably your only option.
100% agree, JB4 can't control timing without doing a bullshit hack like using a resistor to trick IATs.

I did find it interesting that Dinan claims it can DIRECTLY control AFR through Dinantronics.
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      10-17-2016, 03:48 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DKM3Power View Post

To adjust IGN timing, we simply set the ECU to a relatively constant advance based on various factors,,then used an ol fashion timing light and turned simply turned the distributer cap forward or back...Im sure many of you remember that LOL...
I was just adjusting my timing at the weekend on my MK 2 Golf GTI.
Today its a little easier diagnosing and tuning cars. When its not running great you plug it in and you find out what's wrong, on the old engines, there is no OBD and the only way to think and find what's wrong. I had a rough low end on the golf the other day and it turned out to be moisture in the dizzy cap...took me about 45min to work it out.

On the tuning side, i have to use timing light, dizzy cap, air/fuel screw and listen to for knock myself .......i love it.
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      10-17-2016, 03:52 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrematureApex View Post
?

Since when? It's common knowledge it doesn't, and never has. Unless things have changed with the F series.


Jb4 can lower timing by 2-3 degrees through MAP and IAT biasing , this has been a known fact for a long time.

As for nitrous, it is definitely not recommended on this platform and it never ends well.
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      10-17-2016, 03:55 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com View Post
Jb4 can lower timing by 2-3 degrees through MAP and IAT biasing , this has been a known fact for a long time.

As for nitrous, it is definitely not recommended on this platform and it never ends well.
That is not really the same thing is isolating and adjusting timing, as there are many variables in the ECU which are affected by IAT. It's an extremely crude tuning approach.
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      10-17-2016, 03:56 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxical3 View Post
That is not really the same thing is isolating and adjusting timing, as there are many variables in the ECU which are affected by IAT. It's an extremely crude tuning approach.
I did not say it is the best way to do it, obviously flash would be the way to go if you would like to change timing.

That being said, Jb4 does have access to it and can lower it if needed.
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      10-17-2016, 04:01 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrematureApex View Post
A JB4 has no timing control, and relies on the DME's adaptive advance.

For a big turbo, nitrous, etc. you can look into adding the CPS module (if you can find one...it it even F series compatible), or...a better idea, just get a back-end flash.

But the JB4...no timing control.

Terry, back in the day...
I will deff look into the CPS. Hoping bc the i/c chiller,meth in, catless dp to 3"+ open exhaust which yes lowers iat & egt by as much as 50% and 115 octane, the DME may run an acceptable timing advance,,, I worry bc the meth and NOS are introduced post MAF and the 115 octane will result in zero pre knock activity the timing will be agressively advanced, even morso than now...

In regards to JB4 and ignition timing, I'm not an expert hence my OP, but common sense tells me it absolutely has to have an indirect effect...I believe F series relies primarily on IAT for timing, but it also relies on a myriad of other sensors, the same that determine boost levels...Just look at your JB4 logs in diff MAPs and conditions, you can see a loose correlation...However the algorithm used exactly I'm sure is extremely complex.

I just found a 200 page .pdf on the S55 and 1st paragraph it highlights the fact that MOST of the fueling, fuel, ignition, systems are identical in theory and mechanism of action...I have a month to study this before executing my plan of attack.......

This manual is clearly worded and a must read for ANY tuner of weekend warrior modding his car...It spells things out in black and white, what sensors influence what parameters...shared parts between n55, s55...Read earlier both the N55 (M2 specific) and S55 use Bosch HDEV5.2 Solenoid valve Inectors (n20, n54, and some other N55s do not, and they actually spray 10% per valve more fuel toward intake side under heavy load/ WOT ,therefor 20% less total fuel the opposite side of the combustion chamber... (They spray in a 4 way atomized mist pattern...) An even mist is sprayed under normal conditions and at idle....

However, I found this interesting....unlike the N55 the S55 atually has a second High Pressure pump that turns on at 3000RPM...also these two pumps have what looks and works like a camshaft on top. spinning and depressing a spring loaded button every 60* basically building up more overall fuel pressure then releasing it in time with the DME controlled injector pulse..


Way off topic but found this very interesting from an engineering stand point...

I'll get into the Ignition system next and be able to say with certinty what sensors determine timing and the order in which they are used in regards to importance...
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      10-17-2016, 04:13 PM   #18
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Something to consider...the M2 makes more power with better quality of fuel, this is almost 100% the result of timing advance. So JB4 with its Flex fuel connector tricks the DME into thinking ( true or not) theres better and or more fuel, therefor influencing timing...

I think theres no doubt it has an INDIRECT effect, which really doesnt help me...But...Illupload the Ignition Timing Chapter in 20 mins and PM it to you guys so the debate can be squashed.
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      10-17-2016, 06:05 PM   #19
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Bottom Line...

The bottom line is, is JB4 Map 7 Race Gas Map the map to run with a small shot of Nitrous, a load of Meth, and relatively low boost (16PSI)?

....IAT's bc of the C02 / Water sprayer, Meth, will most likely be lower than ambient temps...
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      10-17-2016, 08:05 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com View Post
Jb4 can lower timing by 2-3 degrees through MAP and IAT biasing , this has been a known fact for a long time.

As for nitrous, it is definitely not recommended on this platform and it never ends well.
You're kidding right? That is not at all the same as the JB4 selectively altering timing based on factors like running nitrous. The car's DME is doing all of it.

Way to man up to your lack of product knowledge. Even BMS says their product doesn't control timing.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrematureApex View Post
You're kidding right? That is not at all the same as the JB4 altering timing. The DME is doing all of it.

Way to man up to your lack of product knowledge.
No need to be insulting ... The JB4 tricks the ECU to lower timing.
Result is a decrease in timing
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      10-17-2016, 08:45 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrematureApex View Post
You're kidding right? That is not at all the same as the JB4 selectively altering timing based on factors like running nitrous. The car's DME is doing all of it.

Way to man up to your lack of product knowledge. Even BMS says their product doesn't control timing.
Just to moderate here for a min, I dont think he meant that JB4 had a direct or controllable effect on timing, and he def didn't say it alters timing based on nitrous....

I think he said what I'd agree with, the general idea that JB4 can affect timing...Xtreme Powerhouse can correct me if Im wrong...

Although now you got me thinking, if Terry originally build Nitrous Control in, either A. Timing maybe or affected when Nitrous is triggered or only pulled if AFR gets too lean while spraying...

B. He knew that running those safety mechanisms and a direct and premature dose of Meth would cool enough, and raise octane enough that the DME could avoid pulling timing all together...

I tend to agree the later may be possible....I guess I wont find out until I try...FYI, I will be starting with the smallest NO2 jets made, a larger fuel jet and a 10 meth nozzle...Working up to 35 shot .032

Even if it goes as well as I think it will and the car handles it and makes a NOTICABLE gain, I will not use a bigger shot and I will use the No2 very sparingly....Maybe keep it to the drag strip.

The only thing to push after everything is working smoothly is to slowly raise the boost back to the 18-19 range, And only if I see fuel mixtures on the richer side, no knocking obviously, no MAJOR timing pull, and no misfires...

Still looking for a way to effectively control timing, but I think with the less is more mentality Ill be ok...
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