[MB London]

I know tis has been dominating peoples space over the last couple of months, would be interesting to see how this forum sits.

[imy]

Possible can of worms?

I work in banking, my main concern stems from the economy. Immigration is a point and living in London it does have an immediate impact. But ive been to a number of forums, spoken to a number of banks, analysts, investors etc and so ive made my decision based purely on the economy and my own thoughts on it from the information I have gathered.

Some friends of mine have said they will vote remain purely because if we were to leave their companies (Vodafone in this instance) will up and relocate to Amsterdam (not a bad thing in my eyes).

Whichever way it swings, the whole campaign from both sides has been an absolute travesty. I think a lot less of a number of politicians (if possible) than I did before the campaign on both side.

[Thermobaric]

What I find amusing is all these people on FB spewing 'facts' for both sides thinking they're informed and everyone else is an idiot for thinking the opposite of them. We don't know shit. Politicians don't know shit. It's all speculation.

I can say though there does seem more concrete reasons to leave.

Immigration is completely out of control. Now I'm not anti immigration. Skilled people are more than welcome to come and plug our skill gaps but having free immigration of unskilled people just coming here for the benefits is a total diaster. We are a small island, with existing unemployment and a massive homeless problem. Where will these people live and work? The government are failing to build enough housing as it is. It's a total mess. Add to increase in crime, things look increasingly bleak.

Nonsense about loosing trade e.t.c. France can't afford to do anything to compromise trade relations as they're poor as.

I do think we should be in control of our own laws. It makes no sense there is stuff forced EU wide when countries in the EU have different laws to us.

We used to rule the world. Just look at us now...

[MB London]

what he said

[djgandy]

The trade stuff is nonsense. We import too much from Germany, and if Germany suffers the whole of the EU suffers with it. The Germans know this - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36596060

I'm a leaver. Not because I don't want to cooperate with Europe it trade with it. I do and we should do those things. I just don't want to be part of a political union that doesn't represent anyone in Europe except itself.

The EU as it stands today has gone way beyond its original remit. It is a bully and I will be thinking of all the poor Greeks that it has completely failed when I mark my box.

[mob17]

I think the EU has caused BMW to use runflats and so for that i'm out

[imy]

The leave campaign is confused about the single market and sends out mixed messages. It wants to remain in the single market. To stay in the single market you must have freedom of movement. We cannot be part of a single market and restrict movement.

Net migration was approx 300k. 600k people left the country and 300k came in.

Immigration is 0.5% a yr of the total population. The cost of the EU is £8bn which is approx 0.8% of UK budget. too many immigrants or Government failure?

Leave have never quoted that they will reduce immigration - rather they "want more control" as we have heard countless times.

A lot of the failures that are being put forward by the leave campaign can actually be attributed to government failures - which is ironic the you have Boris campaigning for leave yet he never delivered on his numbers for housing.

Personally, they've both failed miserably. Had the government done what it needed to and promised to there wouldn't be these issues. Had Cameron negotiated better then again this would have faired better - and agreed the European courts have far too much power, far far too much. But the leave party has tarnished facts and discredited themselves in their campaign IMO.

If we vote out then hey ho - it will be a very grim immediate future, but who knows the long term future. If we vote in, then perhaps the EU will take stock and allow greater flexibility in fear of future referendums.

[Chappers 71]

I'm voting to leave;

My grandad fought in WW2 so I wouldn't have to live under the Third Riech, I don't want to be a part of the Fourth Riech, bloody Germans! Seriously though
when we joined the EU it was very different to how it is today, it was a group of financially strong countries with Eastern European travel strictly controlled by the Russians now most of the old Soviet Union has or wants to join the EU & the majority of those countries are piss poor compared to the uk, that's why so many of them have & want to come here, increasing the need for more houses, more people using the nhs, more cars on the road etc etc.

I'm a carpenter & have worked alongside a lot of Eastern European guys, they can & will work for less money than the equivalent British tradesman and although the legit guys pay tax, if they work here & then go back to there own county for a certain amount of time they are entitled to claim that tax back. So the taxman losses out because the British guy has either had to work for less or has no work at all whilst a non British worker is earning less, paying less tax & then if they are clued up enough claiming that tax money back.

[half Colin]

Originally Posted by imy

The leave campaign is confused about the single market and sends out mixed messages. It wants to remain in the single market. To stay in the single market you must have freedom of movement. We cannot be part of a single market and restrict movement.

Net migration was approx 300k. 600k people left the country and 300k came in.

Immigration is 0.5% a yr of the total population. The cost of the EU is £8bn which is approx 0.8% of UK budget. too many immigrants or Government failure?

Leave have never quoted that they will reduce immigration - rather they "want more control" as we have heard countless times.

A lot of the failures that are being put forward by the leave campaign can actually be attributed to government failures - which is ironic the you have Boris campaigning for leave yet he never delivered on his numbers for housing.
Not sure where you got those high res because
Personally, they've both failed miserably. Had the government done what it needed to and promised to there wouldn't be these issues. Had Cameron negotiated better then again this would have faired better - and agreed the European courts have far too much power, far far too much. But the leave party has tarnished facts and discredited themselves in their campaign IMO.

If we vote out then hey ho - it will be a very grim immediate future, but who knows the long term future. If we vote in, then perhaps the EU will take stock and allow greater flexibility in fear of future referendums.

Not sure where you got those emigration figures because the ONS states only 297,000 emigrated last year. http://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/bulletins/migrationstatisticsquarterlyreport/may2016

[Chappers 71]

Originally Posted by mob17

I think the EU has caused BMW to use runflats and so for that i'm out

Do you mean Commission Regulation (EU) No 523/2012 of 20 June 2012

[RajB]

Originally Posted by half Colin

Not sure where you got those emigration figures because the ONS states only 297,000 emigrated last year. http://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulati...report/may2016

And this is the biggest issue. Everyone quotes facts that are again not substantiated because let's face it, statistics can be tailored to meet whatever argument you are making.

I'm personally out because I don't see things getting better if we stay as we are.

No one can guarantee if we stay in that financially we'll stay stable as the financial institutions can still screw us no matter what we vote for. Some 10 years ago everyone took a massive hit on house prices and incomes and standard of living etc etc and none of it came out of the back of a vote to stay in or out.

And no one can really predict the long term financial implications of leaving either so either way it's an uncertainty tbh.

Financial institutions like control and stability and hence why they will justify the need to remain in. But as most of them are corrupt I'll go against what they think is right.

[imy]

Originally Posted by half Colin

Not sure where you got those emigration figures because the ONS states only 297,000 emigrated last year. http://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/bulletins/migrationstatisticsquarterlyreport/may2016

Sorry I meant 600k came in 300k left meaning 300k net migration. All circa.

[half Colin]

Originally Posted by imy

Sorry I meant 600k came in 300k left meaning 300k net migration. All circa.

No probs - the figures looked like that so I suspected you might. ☺

[surrey 335i]

Vote exit and gives us a chance of extracting our nation from the EU before it goes bust.
EU as it currently is will most likely fail/go bust in next 5 yrs, there will come a tipping point where Merkle is voted out and the Germans will no longer be prepared to fund this whole mess, unsustainable wildly out of control lending (eg Greece).
If we vote to leave now we will have less to pay when it all goes tits up - and it will.

[imy]

Originally Posted by surrey 335i

Vote exit and gives us a chance of extracting our nation from the EU before it goes bust.
EU as it currently is will most likely fail/go bust in next 5 yrs, there will come a tipping point where Merkle is voted out and the Germans will no longer be prepared to fund this whole mess, unsustainable wildly out of control lending (eg Greece).
If we vote to leave now we will have less to pay when it all goes tits up - and it will.

EU going bust? First I heard of that. And I work in financial markets.

[djgandy]

Originally Posted by imy

EU going bust? First I heard of that. And I work in financial markets.

Have you seen the ECB balance sheet? It's already bust, another tip on the scales and the game is up. Greece can never repay their debts. They've fundamentally re-written capitalism to not allow defaulting, because defaulting means the Germans don't get paid. You can't keep a system like that up forever without seriously lowering quality of life and productivity, or people rising up and saying enough is enough.

The whole thing is a sham and the terrible economic growth across Europe should be enough to believe it. Greece is back where it was in the 90s, Spain, Italy and Portugal are at 0% growth per capita for 10-15 years or so too. It's complete economic depression.

The EU along with the ECB and IMF and all the other revolving door "expert institutions" has destroyed these countries and in their minds all they can see is the great job they have done. And lets not forget they forced the bailout on Greece against their will. Greece voted no and the EU + it's cronies ignored it.

The UK has benefited somewhat for their suffering, as many skilled educated workers have fled those countries to work in London, but does that make it right to want to the EU? Is that what the EU is about? Us getting richer at the suffering of others? That seems a very selfish way to think, and in fairness we're not short of graduates ourselves with approx. 1 million people graduating each year (under and post grad).

RE: the immigration argument. 0.5% doesn't sound a lot, but when most of that is to the southeast, it is a lot. If everyone was actually spreading out it wouldn't be such a problem, but the gravity is heavily towards London where population density is high as it is.

TLDR;

I'm with surrey335i on this one. First one out wins. Everyone else loses. If you look across Europe, we're not the only ones that are very unhappy, it's only a matter of time before someone manages to wriggle free. The EU is an arrogant institution and it will drag everyone through hell rather than lose its power. Sadly it will probably take a physical war, because as Greece found out, democracy has no power against the EU. The birthplace of democracy has no voice, how sad is that?

My vote is out but i'm not sure I actually want that result because we'll get scapegoated for everything that happens after. 40% leave would be a victory in my eyes and I hope that would show the smaller nations that are being oppressed that they do have a friend in the larger nations, and that they are not alone in their fight against tyranny.

[half Colin]

I'm all for exit - take back control of our own destiny - our laws, our borders and ours rules. Bring back the blue passport (for those that can remember!).

I bet there are a few countries that secretly wished they had the balls to go to a referendum. Mind you, can you imagine if the vote goes to remain? We'll have no voice in Europe at all, we'll get hammered. The moment we try and object they'll all say "Well, you had your chance and you voted to stay so stop complaining and get on with it!"

[imy]

Originally Posted by half Colin

I'm all for exit - take back control of our own destiny - our laws, our borders and ours rules. Bring back the blue passport (for those that can remember!).

I bet there are a few countries that secretly wished they had the balls to go to a referendum. Mind you, can you imagine if the vote goes to remain? We'll have no voice in Europe at all, we'll get hammered. The moment we try and object they'll all say "Well, you had your chance and you voted to stay so stop complaining and get on with it!"

I think if we remain, Europe, the ECB and the central courts will be far more open to looking at the way things are done. They will want to work on some form of resolution so that this referendum does not start a tandem as a number of countries are watching closely at our results with a view of holding possible referendums themselves. This could/should be the wake up call Euro needed to shake things up.

[half Colin]

Originally Posted by imy

I think if we remain, Europe, the ECB and the central courts will be far more open to looking at the way things are done. They will want to work on some form of resolution so that this referendum does not start a tandem as a number of countries are watching closely at our results with a view of holding possible referendums themselves. This could/should be the wake up call Euro needed to shake things up.

Hmm, there's always 2 ways of viewing things. I must admit to being a bit of a cynic but time will tell and history will show. 😐

[djgandy]

Originally Posted by half Colin

Hmm, there's always 2 ways of viewing things. I must admit to being a bit of a cynic but time will tell and history will show. 😐

It's a fantasy - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...a-better-deal/

This man's attitude is not far from "terrorists will not be negotiated with"

[imy]

Originally Posted by djgandy

It's a fantasy - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...a-better-deal/

This man's attitude is not far from "terrorists will not be negotiated with"

Wel see if he has a leg to stand on when Denmark and the Netherlands have their own referendums.

[Brian mc21]

I have no explanation why but I'm out.