[....,,,,..,,..]

Well its getting closer to decision day, when 'everyone' decides if we are in or out.

The Hokey Cokey vote.

Has anyone had any eureka moments over the in / out debate?

It is a bit of a complete buggers muddle on how it is being handled.

This has not been helped by Labour not allowing free debate among its MP's, whereas I imagine a vast majority of its members likely want out.

Then there is the SNP.... enough said.

So it has been pretty much left to Conservatives, UKIP and Lib Dems allowed to argue for the out vote.

http://www.theweek.co.uk/eu-referend...ut-will-be-key

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/e7b2d4d4-d...#axzz49qrSIHm0

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/09668b3e-2...#axzz49qrSIHm0


My main thing is immigration from the EU and lack of control we have.

One of the key things they mention are the numbers of Brits LIVING in the EU, they never mention those working, which I imagine will be very few in comparison to numbers of EU working here.

I was out the other night with some Students, EU was brought up and one lad argued about being able to work in the EU, this same lad could not speak French, German or Spanish, never mind anything else.

Whereas people coming here on the whole can speak reasonable to very good English.

Try working in a café in France / Germany and not being able to speak local language... will be very few chances of getting a job.

So I am undecided still and annoyed over lack of clarity or discussion from Labour (clarity by saying no is not really helpful lol).

[dobbo99]

Im going to show my ignorance perhaps, BUT surely if the negatives of being in the EU were strong enough, we would already be out of it??
I would imagine that being out of the EU would be a risk, but once friendships are made up/rekindled then life will be no better or worse.

I think the whole Brexit thing is just an excuse to stop the migrants from the middle east arriving on our doorstep (or shores) unannounced, and to be able to hand them back to France and shrug our shoulders.

As I say, perhaps I am ignorant and not informed enough.

[creepy coupe]

Same here for me, main thing is immigration from the EU and lack of control we have.

If most immigrants are arriving through channel ports such as Calais. I can just see the French turning a blind eye to them departing their shores, in a kind of two finger to Britain way. I can't imagine we will still be allowed or customs on french soil, in the same way we do now.

[xenon]

If anyone thinks we'll have more border control then you're labouring under a massive misapprehension.

[jnismith]

My 10 euro cents worth is that we will be treated like a pariah if we leave. Sure we can cosy up to the US but Trump isn't going to give a f**k about us which leaves Russia and China as potential saviours. The EEC has a lot of faults but I'd much rather be in a club and try and change it than be outside, looking in, wishing we'd never left and not being allowed back.

[Edinburra]

I am minded that referendums change nothing and will wager that this is what will happen in this instance.

The outcome of the Scottish referendum changed nothing, the SNP still want a referendum despite the result.

[....,,,,..,,..]

Originally Posted by xenon

If anyone thinks we'll have more border control then you're labouring under a massive misapprehension.

Can you expand on that?

At moment any EU citizen can enter the UK, unless they are thought to be a very real danger.

So even just putting controls on right to work act and benefits, makes it relatively pointless to actually move here.

We also then have the right to stop anyone with specific crimes from entering, similar to th States has.

That is without even putting in a full visa system.

There is a lot of the Intel shared that is not dependant on being in the EU, this same Intel is passed to non EU countries such as States, Canada etc.

[TodmordenLad]

Originally Posted by jnismith

My 10 euro cents worth is that we will be treated like a pariah if we leave. Sure we can cosy up to the US but Trump isn't going to give a f**k about us which leaves Russia and China as potential saviours. The EEC has a lot of faults but I'd much rather be in a club and try and change it than be outside, looking in, wishing we'd never left and not being allowed back.

Couldn't agree more

And I care too much about the value of my investments and my pensions (much of whose value is invested in UK companies) to even countenance a Leave vote. Selfish I know, but I am out of work and the income matters right now.

The treasury has predicted a 12 month recession if we leave, along with a horde of leading economists, based on a continued fall in value of the £ and a slumping UK stock market. I'd say a year is very conservative, probably a lot longer

As far as curbing immigration is concerned, all well and good but how would our public services operate without European labour, free to live and work here? Just look at the health service alone. Speaking from personal experience, I've had eye and knee surgery in recent years, and all the specialists were mainland Europeans - in the case of the eye surgery, here on exchange programmes funded by the EU

I could go on ad nauseum about this. I won't. Both campaigns are crap IMO and the arguments, for what they're worth, have already degenerated into slanging matches which present the Conservatives in a very poor light. It's a terrifying prospect, and all the more so given that the vast majority of voters will be casting their votes on June 23rd in blissful ignorance of the long lasting cultural and economic implications of Brexit

Cameron is a complete **** for getting us in this mess in the first place

[ciscopete822]

Originally Posted by TodmordenLad

Couldn't agree more

And I care too much about the value of my investments and my pensions (much of whose value is invested in UK companies) to even countenance a Leave vote. Selfish I know, but I am out of work and the income matters right now.

The treasury has predicted a 12 month recession if we leave, along with a horde of leading economists, based on a continued fall in value of the £ and a slumping UK stock market. I'd say a year is very conservative, probably a lot longer

As far as curbing immigration is concerned, all well and good but how would our public services operate without European labour, free to live and work here? Just look at the health service alone. Speaking from personal experience, I've had eye and knee surgery in recent years, and all the specialists were mainland Europeans - in the case of the eye surgery, here on exchange programmes funded by the EU

I could go on ad nauseum about this. I won't. Both campaigns are crap IMO and the arguments, for what they're worth, have already degenerated into slanging matches which present the Conservatives in a very poor light. It's a terrifying prospect, and all the more so given that the vast majority of voters will be casting their votes on June 23rd in blissful ignorance of the long lasting cultural and economic implications of Brexit

Cameron is a complete **** for getting us in this mess in the first place

^^ This

Dude made some valid points.

[....,,,,..,,..]

Originally Posted by TodmordenLad

Couldn't agree more

And I care too much about the value of my investments and my pensions (much of whose value is invested in UK companies) to even countenance a Leave vote. Selfish I know, but I am out of work and the income matters right now.

The treasury has predicted a 12 month recession if we leave, along with a horde of leading economists, based on a continued fall in value of the £ and a slumping UK stock market. I'd say a year is very conservative, probably a lot longer

As far as curbing immigration is concerned, all well and good but how would our public services operate without European labour, free to live and work here? Just look at the health service alone. Speaking from personal experience, I've had eye and knee surgery in recent years, and all the specialists were mainland Europeans - in the case of the eye surgery, here on exchange programmes funded by the EU

I could go on ad nauseum about this. I won't. Both campaigns are crap IMO and the arguments, for what they're worth, have already degenerated into slanging matches which present the Conservatives in a very poor light. It's a terrifying prospect, and all the more so given that the vast majority of voters will be casting their votes on June 23rd in blissful ignorance of the long lasting cultural and economic implications of Brexit

Cameron is a complete **** for getting us in this mess in the first place

You will still get trained people working in the UK, the Philippines are not in the EU,nor India, pakistan etc, however we still get doctors, health care, nurses etc from those respective countries.

What it would prevent is people coming over for low skilled work especially countries that have poor work ethics.

There is a huge difference between a pole and someone from Romania etc.

So again people saying we would lose trained people are most likely completely wrong.

It's the low skilled low paid that companies are worried about losing.

[Rukka]

What really annoys me with the whole campaign is the corporate buffoons being wheeled out to say how damaging it will be if we leave.

The truth is, no one really knows what will happen in terms of trade and if it will cost us more or less to sell/buy our goods. It Cameron had the balls to come out and say that, we would at least have a shred of respect for him. But instead, we get these half assed statements telling us that the value of our houses will plummet; the cost of living will rise; our pensions will be worth less; taxes will go up etc etc etc.

Reality - I would much rather pay a bit more tax if I knew the money was being used to the benefit of THIS country and not everyone else across Europe.

Turkey - don't get me started on that one! Whoever even thought that Turkey should be able to join the EU should be f*cking hung.

Immigration/Asylum seekers - whilst I see the plight of many and to be honest, why wouldn't you want to leave Syria and live in a country where you don't get shot at as soon as you walk down the street (ok, lets leave Liverpool, Manchester and Glasgow out of this...) but in all seriousness, we are a small island and we simply cannot cope anymore!

It has been said that our National Health Service relies on Europeans; Doctors, Surgeons, etc. That's great - if you have a trade that the UK needs and you contribute to society - then "welcome".

If you are coming to our country to get free accommodation, handouts, free healthcare (all whilst working at the local car wash for cash in hand wages and paying no tax or NI) then frankly no - you can bugger off!

We can't build houses fast enough, the NHS is absolutely saturated beyond comprehension, your kids can't get into the local school come September because it's full......

What really boils my p1ss is how hundreds of thousands of men and women fought for our country in two World Wars to keep us safe; how many proud young men actually lied about their age so they could sign up to protect a country they loved and were proud of and now our idiotic politicians open the doors to one and all. I'll bet each and every one of those brave servicemen and women who gave their lives are turning in their graves!

This is a once in a lifetime opportunity for us to end this bureaucratic madness and; for better or for worse; take back control of OUR COUNTRY.

Your kids and grand kids will thank you for it.

Rant over - I'm out


.



https://www.brexitthemovie.com/






.

[xenon]

Originally Posted by Brigand

Can you expand on that?

At moment any EU citizen can enter the UK, unless they are thought to be a very real danger.

So even just putting controls on right to work act and benefits, makes it relatively pointless to actually move here.

We also then have the right to stop anyone with specific crimes from entering, similar to th States has.

That is without even putting in a full visa system.

There is a lot of the Intel shared that is not dependant on being in the EU, this same Intel is passed to non EU countries such as States, Canada etc.

Because it's all theory. We would need to implement a visa system and what about the millions already here?

I fully agree that immigration needs to be reined in but EU membership or otherwise is pretty irrelevant IMO.

[antjos1]

This is one of the main reasons I will be voting out.
If we stay in this will happen all over the country.


Here at Redcar and Cleveland we have been told by our Council that 25 refugee families per
year are coming to this area (5per family) for the next 5 years.The first year alone it will cost £1.5 million .£200 per person will be allocated for primary medical care for the first year (GPs,A&E visits etc) while £2000 will be allocated for secondary medical care.
A support worker will be assigned to each family and act as a link between the family and local services. Initially, they will be supported by interpreters “whilst the council will help the families to navigate the local customs and practices here in the UK”.(Bullshit)
The council has been alerted that potentially some of the adult refugees have secondary mental health needs and a need for occupational health assessments,(more cost)
Over the five-year programme, the council believe the total cost will be £2.9m.(a lot more)
The council also apologised for not informing a Middlesbrough school that a building in its grounds was being used as a welcome centre for Syrian refugees
It will also cost education £2,250 for children aged three to four, and £4,500 for school age children up to 18.
All properties have been identified, says the council report and six of the eight were being prepared for occupation last month.

This includes decoration, carpeting, basic furnishings, including fittings (e.g. beds, chairs, crockery, bed linens etc).They quickly went on to be settled in their new homes
The cost of this will come from the first year funding for the eight families, which equates to £289,680, which will be claimed from the Home Office once the refugees arrive
Year one of the funding for 75 children (Aged 5-18) would generate a total of £337,500 of income, shared between the schools in which the children are placed.
Now that's a lot of money
We have never been asked about taking these people in they just arrived without anyone knowing apart from the Council
Truly appalling
I see Mr Cameron and all his cronies are not having any in their backyard.
We in the North are fed up with all these refugees getting dumped on our doorsteps.When you go to the town centre you think you are in a different country,
I am old enough to remember the time when we went into the Common Market ,the EU now has grown into an evil organisation who are corrupt and only think about themselves.
VOTE OUT ,DONT FORGET OR YOU WILL REGRET

[antjos1]

Originally Posted by Rukka

What really annoys me with the whole campaign is the corporate buffoons being wheeled out to say how damaging it will be if we leave.

The truth is, no one really knows what will happen in terms of trade and if it will cost us more or less to sell/buy our goods. It Cameron had the balls to come out and say that, we would at least have a shred of respect for him. But instead, we get these half assed statements telling us that the value of our houses will plummet; the cost of living will rise; our pensions will be worth less; taxes will go up etc etc etc.

Reality - I would much rather pay a bit more tax if I knew the money was being used to the benefit of THIS country and not everyone else across Europe.

Turkey - don't get me started on that one! Whoever even thought that Turkey should be able to join the EU should be f*cking hung.

Immigration/Asylum seekers - whilst I see the plight of many and to be honest, why wouldn't you want to leave Syria and live in a country where you don't get shot at as soon as you walk down the street (ok, lets leave Liverpool, Manchester and Glasgow out of this...) but in all seriousness, we are a small island and we simply cannot cope anymore!

It has been said that our National Health Service relies on Europeans; Doctors, Surgeons, etc. That's great - if you have a trade that the UK needs and you contribute to society - then "welcome".

If you are coming to our country to get free accommodation, handouts, free healthcare (all whilst working at the local car wash for cash in hand wages and paying no tax or NI) then frankly no - you can bugger off!

We can't build houses fast enough, the NHS is absolutely saturated beyond comprehension, your kids can't get into the local school come September because it's full......

What really boils my p1ss is how hundreds of thousands of men and women fought for our country in two World Wars to keep us safe; how many proud young men actually lied about their age so they could sign up to protect a country they loved and were proud of and now our idiotic politicians open the doors to one and all. I'll bet each and every one of those brave servicemen and women who gave their lives are turning in their graves!

This is a once in a lifetime opportunity for us to end this bureaucratic madness and; for better or for worse; take back control of OUR COUNTRY.

Your kids and grand kids will thank you for it.

Rant over - I'm out


.



https://www.brexitthemovie.com/






.

Well said Mate

[gembrain]

Originally Posted by Rukka

What really annoys me with the whole campaign is the corporate buffoons being wheeled out to say how damaging it will be if we leave.

The truth is, no one really knows what will happen in terms of trade and if it will cost us more or less to sell/buy our goods. It Cameron had the balls to come out and say that, we would at least have a shred of respect for him. But instead, we get these half assed statements telling us that the value of our houses will plummet; the cost of living will rise; our pensions will be worth less; taxes will go up etc etc etc.

Reality - I would much rather pay a bit more tax if I knew the money was being used to the benefit of THIS country and not everyone else across Europe.

Turkey - don't get me started on that one! Whoever even thought that Turkey should be able to join the EU should be f*cking hung.

Immigration/Asylum seekers - whilst I see the plight of many and to be honest, why wouldn't you want to leave Syria and live in a country where you don't get shot at as soon as you walk down the street (ok, lets leave Liverpool, Manchester and Glasgow out of this...) but in all seriousness, we are a small island and we simply cannot cope anymore!

It has been said that our National Health Service relies on Europeans; Doctors, Surgeons, etc. That's great - if you have a trade that the UK needs and you contribute to society - then "welcome".

If you are coming to our country to get free accommodation, handouts, free healthcare (all whilst working at the local car wash for cash in hand wages and paying no tax or NI) then frankly no - you can bugger off!

We can't build houses fast enough, the NHS is absolutely saturated beyond comprehension, your kids can't get into the local school come September because it's full......

What really boils my p1ss is how hundreds of thousands of men and women fought for our country in two World Wars to keep us safe; how many proud young men actually lied about their age so they could sign up to protect a country they loved and were proud of and now our idiotic politicians open the doors to one and all. I'll bet each and every one of those brave servicemen and women who gave their lives are turning in their graves!

This is a once in a lifetime opportunity for us to end this bureaucratic madness and; for better or for worse; take back control of OUR COUNTRY.

Your kids and grand kids will thank you for it.

Rant over - I'm out


.
https://www.brexitthemovie.com/

.

+1 Nicely put - covers most of the points I would want to raise!

[Eddieo]

For better or worse I agree with.
However it will be uncertainty that wins.
And we will remain in

[allachie9]

Originally Posted by Edinburra

I am minded that referendums change nothing and will wager that this is what will happen in this instance.

The outcome of the Scottish referendum changed nothing, the SNP still want a referendum despite the result.

Exactly this ^^

I suspect that, whatever the outcome of the EU referendum, the SNP will still be calling for an independence referendum, time after time, until we do get it right (in their view).
But of course the current threat from the SNP in general, and Shrek in particular, is that if we vote the 'wrong' way to leave the EU, the SNP will try to force another independence referendum on us within 2 years.

So for us here north of the border there is that additional complication and it makes voting very much a heart versus head matter.

We might want to vote to leave . . . but dare we ?

[Edinburra]

Originally Posted by allachie9

Exactly this ^^

I suspect that, whatever the outcome of the EU referendum, the SNP will still be calling for an independence referendum, time after time, until we do get it right (in their view).
But of course the current threat from the SNP in general, and Shrek in particular, is that if we vote the 'wrong' way to leave the EU, the SNP will try to force another independence referendum on us within 2 years.

So for us here north of the border there is that additional complication and it makes voting very much a heart versus head matter.

We might want to vote to leave . . . but dare we ?

Agree with you totally. I would willingly vote against whatever the SNP want as a matter of principle, but in this case??? I doubt I could retain my sanity through another referendum.

[Bibbles]

I'm voting to stay in purely based on what I believe is best for me and my family. That's all I think anyone can do as there are absolutely no facts to base any decisions on. All I hear is made up statistics and conjecture to suit each sides argument. Also if we stop all the immigration, who are the hordes of Daily Fail readers going to turn on instead.

[....,,,,..,,..]

Originally Posted by xenon

Because it's all theory. We would need to implement a visa system and what about the millions already here?

I fully agree that immigration needs to be reined in but EU membership or otherwise is pretty irrelevant IMO.

But that's the thing, it is not actually theory.

We already have a mandatory check for right to work in the UK.

This would simply be expanded to specific countries.

We don't as such need a visa system up front.

If you are employed AND PAYING TAX, then as long as you don't change companies, there is no further check on right to work in the UK.

Same with landlords, get rid of those with 30 people in one house.

EU membership is very relevant, it is only EU citizens or those having been granted asylum that can move around freely.

Not wanting anything draconian, just not having our housing filled, our low paid jobs filled with unknown and usually unregistered workers.

We can then also have free rein on deporting foreign criminals soon as possible.

[Tom Tallon]

Oddschecker odds with bookies are remain 1/7. Its a foregone conclusion and anyone who says otherwise is pissing in the wind.

My guess is the split will be 63% remain and 37% out.

For christs sake lets get it over and back to making the country work again!

[AndyMD]

What gets me is that the vast amount of people who want out don't understand or haven't researched what being a member of the EU means. All I see is £350m a week goes to Europe get rid of johnny foreigner, with no real balance of what £350m and the foreign worker do for this country.

NET, only 1p in every £1 we are taxed stayed in Europe, the rest is rebated back to us. Just google 'European regeneration development fund' and see many project and areas in the UK benefit from it. Plus large companies that employ over a certain amount of people get tax breaks for employment or rent agreements on the land their factories on. Filming gets huge rebates, that's why everything from Star Wars to Harry Potter gets made in the UK. Most of the film industry will relocate to Southern Ireland (In the EU) so they continue to get the rebates.

A good friend who has been in journalism and politics in for 30 years, said it's 10 years too soon to come out. He wants out but not just yet as there's too many unpredictable sceneries being the first out. I tend to agree. Out but not just yet. The alternatives just aren't that appealing. Boris as PM? He's only out for himself or Corbyn a closet Jew hater

We will never be in control of what our government spends. I would love if all of the people spreading mostly false information would get involved in how this government spends the money they are responsible for. £55 Billion on a train track to get to Manchester 17 mins quicker from London! Waste of money, NHS need it, but where are you all protesting against this type of money wastage? If these people get animated toward the powers they can change, this country will get better