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      03-05-2016, 11:58 AM   #1
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Future V8s: What's next?

As much as I've tried, I have not yet discovered any significant info on the next generation of BMW V8 engines or even further permutations of the N63/S63. There is always rumor as to downsizing to a Twin-turbo 4 liter 8 as is there talk of what the power output could be on the future N63/S63. Looking to consolidate what we know and what we don't, looking forward to responses.
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      03-06-2016, 02:29 PM   #2
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No one knows.. maybe Scott does?
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      03-06-2016, 03:20 PM   #3
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SCOTT26
Any droplets of info?
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      03-09-2016, 11:21 AM   #4
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All I know is the next M5 will have AWD and 600HP. I would likely consider it as a replacement for my 6GC. Interesting on reducing the displacement.
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      03-09-2016, 04:01 PM   #5
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Mercedes is currently switching to 4 liter 8's and Audi already has them. I'm starting to wonder if the future M550i might try the 4 liter first and the M5 continue to have a variant of the current S63. I guess it makes sense if companies want more modular engine design with 500cc/cylinder.
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      03-10-2016, 07:42 AM   #6
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This is a topic that I have a lot of curiosity about as well.

As you point out, OP, there is virtually no leaked information about the future of BMW V8's out there. Just rumor. As time passes and we move toward the eDrive generation, my suspicion grows ever more toward the conclusion that N63/S63 (or some very closely related variants) will hold the torch until the bitter end, and the V8 will disappear from BMW portfolio sometime in the next couple decades or so (just my SWAG on the timing).

If you look at the diesel side of things, BMW got rid of the V8 long ago and instead decided to focus on the state of the art 125hp/L N57S. That was years ago, and only just now, with the 4.0L diesel V8 in the SQ7 are they being outclassed. But, I suspect a future B57-based diesel engine will eclipse 400hp. One thing we know they will not do is reintroduce a diesel V8. They may very well do an eDrive diesel at some point though.

Back to the gasoline side, BMW has said years ago they are targeting as much as 200hp/L from the B* family. And once you add in eDrive, the sky is the limit really. The need to have a V8 in order to make 500hp+ will diminish soon and likely disappear by sometime mid next decade (the M4 GTS already hits 500hp with its non-B58 based S55, though it uses water injection to do so).

Competitors, such as Mercedes, are slowly abandoning V8 engines in non-AMG-proper vehicles. Notably the E class no longer has a non-AMG V8 model, and the new W213 almost certainly will not either. Instead it will get the new M256 I6 soon. Note that Mercedes has a non-AMG version of the 4.0L V8 (called the M176) that they could be using here like the do in the G-Wagen. But they have opted not to, and they also have not replaced the 4.7L V8 in the S-Class and SL-Class with this V8 either, though they may still yet make that move in time. But it would be a brief stop-gap IMHO. The I6 is their next big move.

Cadillac and Lexus don't offer V8s in this class either (the former never has), aside from the ones under their high-performance labels.

Soon, we'll likely see BMW replace its first V8 *50i model with a *50e iPerformance model using the I6 + electric motor combination. I think this will occur during the G generation of cars. Once one goes, its just a matter of time. The last one to go will be the S63 from M vehicles - give that at least one more generation, maybe two.

That's my analysis.
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      03-10-2016, 10:00 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
This is a topic that I have a lot of curiosity about as well.

As you point out, OP, there is virtually no leaked information about the future of BMW V8's out there. Just rumor. As time passes and we move toward the eDrive generation, my suspicion grows ever more toward the conclusion that N63/S63 (or some very closely related variants) will hold the torch until the bitter end, and the V8 will disappear from BMW portfolio sometime in the next couple decades or so (just my SWAG on the timing).

If you look at the diesel side of things, BMW got rid of the V8 long ago and instead decided to focus on the state of the art 125hp/L N57S. That was years ago, and only just now, with the 4.0L diesel V8 in the SQ7 are they being outclassed. But, I suspect a future B57-based diesel engine will eclipse 400hp. One thing we know they will not do is reintroduce a diesel V8. They may very well do an eDrive diesel at some point though.

Back to the gasoline side, BMW has said years ago they are targeting as much as 200hp/L from the B* family. And once you add in eDrive, the sky is the limit really. The need to have a V8 in order to make 500hp+ will diminish soon and likely disappear by sometime mid next decade (the M4 GTS already hits 500hp with its non-B58 based S55, though it uses water injection to do so).

Competitors, such as Mercedes, are slowly abandoning V8 engines in non-AMG-proper vehicles. Notably the E class no longer has a non-AMG V8 model, and the new W213 almost certainly will not either. Instead it will get the new M256 I6 soon. Note that Mercedes has a non-AMG version of the 4.0L V8 (called the M176) that they could be using here like the do in the G-Wagen. But they have opted not to, and they also have not replaced the 4.7L V8 in the S-Class and SL-Class with this V8 either, though they may still yet make that move in time. But it would be a brief stop-gap IMHO. The I6 is their next big move.

Cadillac and Lexus don't offer V8s in this class either (the former never has), aside from the ones under their high-performance labels.

Soon, we'll likely see BMW replace its first V8 *50i model with a *50e iPerformance model using the I6 + electric motor combination. I think this will occur during the G generation of cars. Once one goes, its just a matter of time. The last one to go will be the S63 from M vehicles - give that at least one more generation, maybe two.

That's my analysis.
This is my opinion exactly. Mercedes not replacing the 4.7 in addition to developing a new I6 points to the end of the line. The new E43 AMG is a 6 cylinder. Audi is now going to have a turbo 6 in the R8 according to the latest. Really hoping the N63/S63 is not the end of the line.

On a side note, V8s are not inherently less efficient. Should an auto maker decide to make a very small turbo V8, you'd get efficiency and the torquey punch they're known for (think Ferrari F40). I do however acknowledge the future of electricity, hoping BMW can implement it to the best of its capability.
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      03-10-2016, 12:03 PM   #8
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I see a 4 Liter V8 of some sort with E-turbo this or E drive that( I believe the current Bxx series are pretty modular). I doubt it will fully die just as the V12 hasn't. However I see it being a rare breed only in the upper trim levels and as long as emissions/economy standards can be meet. The consumer will have to pay but I highly doubt the V8 is dead, as more fuel efficient solutions are found it will help buck the trend. Even if in 10yrs it is a 2 liter V8 with 3 Electronic turbos, if the market demands it they will sell it.

I think the biggest problem with z German brands is it has to make a solid business case and be profitably for such few sales in the overall picture. An with the current gen 4s and 6s producing as much power as large NA V8s of old its a tough sell.

I know GM is currently working on a twin turbos V8 for the none high performance models and rumors of a much smaller NA v8 for the next gen Vette/ Camaro . I doubt GM will abandon the V8 just as its unlikely FCA or Ford will all together. But they will become much more complex and expensive to produce in order to make CAFE numbers and that cost will be pushed onto those consumers.

Its not all uncommon to have a V8 now that isn't able to get 25-29MPGs which a while back ago that was unheard of for a sedans or sports cars.

The test will be how all this translates to SUVs/Pickup segment where V8s are almost a must.

I would buy that 2.0 liter V8 with 3 turbos and its a plug-in.

Last edited by DocWeatherington; 03-10-2016 at 12:14 PM..
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      03-10-2016, 12:43 PM   #9
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Yeah, Cadillac is doing some VERY interesting work in regard to future fuel efficient and powerful V8s. I think BMW will figure something out, but I hope they don't keep small V8s off the table, after all, it worked on the F40
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      03-10-2016, 03:14 PM   #10
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Nah they know many love V8s and manuals.. Porsche realized this and they are starting to correct a few wrongs
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      03-10-2016, 06:19 PM   #11
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The sub-4L V8 has no viable business case outside of select super cars or exotics. Outside of that rarified air, not enough people who want a small displacement V8 will refuse to accept a four or six cylinder equivalent instead. For high performance sport sedans and sport coupes, the marketplace has largely already proven that the number of cylinders is not a crucial part of the package. If the vehicle has the performance numbers, it is going to make the emotional impact it needs to have on buyers.

We'll see 500hp, 600hp, 700hp+ six cylinder hybrids soon. A V8 will become unjustifiable at some point. Another datapoint to consider: when an F150 with a 3.5L turbocharged V6 - not a V8, which has been a staple in this class of truck - has gained hold and not only found a significant number of buyers but begun to outsell the comparable V8, that's some very big writing on the wall. And remember this - your Corvette and muscle cars get the V8 because there's an easy business case when your factories put 1 million of them a year in these high margin trucks. It's all going to end soon enough. From where I see it, no V8 is safe from the displacement downsizing and PHEV proliferation.
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      03-11-2016, 08:23 AM   #12
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Quote:
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Nah they know many love V8s and manuals.. Porsche realized this and they are starting to correct a few wrongs
Not really.

They abandoned the V8 in the Cayenne GTS. The Panamera is the holdout V8 instead of the TTV6.
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      03-11-2016, 08:28 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
The sub-4L V8 has no viable business case outside of select super cars or exotics. Outside of that rarified air, not enough people who want a small displacement V8 will refuse to accept a four or six cylinder equivalent instead. For high performance sport sedans and sport coupes, the marketplace has largely already proven that the number of cylinders is not a crucial part of the package. If the vehicle has the performance numbers, it is going to make the emotional impact it needs to have on buyers.

We'll see 500hp, 600hp, 700hp+ six cylinder hybrids soon. A V8 will become unjustifiable at some point. Another datapoint to consider: when an F150 with a 3.5L turbocharged V6 - not a V8, which has been a staple in this class of truck - has gained hold and not only found a significant number of buyers but begun to outsell the comparable V8, that's some very big writing on the wall. And remember this - your Corvette and muscle cars get the V8 because there's an easy business case when your factories put 1 million of them a year in these high margin trucks. It's all going to end soon enough. From where I see it, no V8 is safe from the displacement downsizing and PHEV proliferation.
Totally agree.

I think the V8's will soon only be in the M / AMG (full fat) / RS models. As you pointed out, the E43 AMG replaces the old E550. The base E is now a turbo 4, just like in BMW and Audi. People have accepted this in overwhelming numbers...I see way more 528's on the road than I do 535's and 550's are like the least seen. I see 4 M5's for every 550.

Part of the reason I WANT a C63 is that ridiculous engine. Despite it really being too small for my wants, and not having a transmission I desire (6MT or even a proper DCT would be better) you can't escape that raucous, rowdy V8. AMG has hinted in the past that the V8 is really a double version of the I4 in the A/CLA 45 AMG...and that the 8 can double what the 4 can take. Which is currently just under 400 HP. So a small displacement V8 is already here. I don't see it getting much smaller. It's either that, or a 6 with various assists (turbo, e-turbo or electric motor).
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      03-11-2016, 12:27 PM   #14
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I guess I'm just hoping for at least one more generation of BMW V8. Actually, the E43 AMG was just announced yesterday, and compared to the E550 it replaced it only makes a few less horsepower (396 vs 402) and claims a 4.5 0-60, better than the outgoing 4.7 V8 E550. I can see downsizing, but it's good to see the V12 still being produced, maybe gives me some hope for the 8 after all. All BMW 8s I've driven have been spectacular in the toque delivery, so here's to hoping.
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      03-11-2016, 03:03 PM   #15
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Quote:
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Actually, the E43 AMG was just announced yesterday, and compared to the E550 it replaced it only makes a few less horsepower (396 vs 402) and claims a 4.5 0-60, better than the outgoing 4.7 V8 E550.
Indeed. However, the old E550 specs lag behind the latest *550 models which have ~450hp just like the equivalent Audi and BMW V8s do. So, if Mercedes truly wanted to compete toe to toe with its German competitors on paper, it could easily do so. However, clearly they don't think it is necessary any longer. As noted above by Needsdecaf, the demand for the mid-model V8 in this class has greatly diminished. More and more, customers are either content with a turbocharged 6, or they want the full-on top-performing ~600hp M/AMG/RS model.

It will be interesting to see if the upcoming C238 E Class Coupe will also drop the V8 now. Recall that the existing C207 E Class Coupe is still sold with the V8 today (with just 402hp like the sedan previously was, as you pointed out). I'd say there's a very good chance the V8 will indeed be dropped here too. On the plus side, there will also be the E63/E63S coupes for the first time (previously there was a CLK63 AMG, but it was curiously only available in convertible form in the US).
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      03-11-2016, 06:03 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
Not really.

They abandoned the V8 in the Cayenne GTS. The Panamera is the holdout V8 instead of the TTV6.
That was in an effort for MPGs and taxes and more sales.. Again the top models will still use V8s, 918 was a V8 Hybrid so I doubt they will abandoned it entirely.

I think if they can find MPGs with a V8 they will. VW group has invested a ton into the new 4.0 TDI V8 and never mind the recent TT 4.0 V8 which will be around for a while.

Last edited by DocWeatherington; 03-11-2016 at 06:20 PM..
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      03-11-2016, 06:18 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
The sub-4L V8 has no viable business case outside of select super cars or exotics. Outside of that rarified air, not enough people who want a small displacement V8 will refuse to accept a four or six cylinder equivalent instead. For high performance sport sedans and sport coupes, the marketplace has largely already proven that the number of cylinders is not a crucial part of the package. If the vehicle has the performance numbers, it is going to make the emotional impact it needs to have on buyers.

We'll see 500hp, 600hp, 700hp+ six cylinder hybrids soon. A V8 will become unjustifiable at some point. Another datapoint to consider: when an F150 with a 3.5L turbocharged V6 - not a V8, which has been a staple in this class of truck - has gained hold and not only found a significant number of buyers but begun to outsell the comparable V8, that's some very big writing on the wall. And remember this - your Corvette and muscle cars get the V8 because there's an easy business case when your factories put 1 million of them a year in these high margin trucks. It's all going to end soon enough. From where I see it, no V8 is safe from the displacement downsizing and PHEV proliferation.
Agreed, I see smaller displacement V8 with hybrid or forced induction. Case in point GM is doing 5.3L V8 eAssist hybrid trucks for 2017. So I think the V8 for the US market has some life as long as they can find CAFE numbers. $500 Bucks for 2 extra MPG (13% increase) and a weight penalty of 100lbs. Not a bad deal http://blog.caranddriver.com/chevrol...ybrid-pickups/

Again the life of the V8 will depend on market demands and its been up and down over the last 5-8yrs as well as evolving tech.

Either way I think as consumers we will win.. better performance with increased MPGs and shitty active sound via the stereo.

Last edited by DocWeatherington; 03-11-2016 at 06:23 PM..
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      03-11-2016, 10:01 PM   #18
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I guess since AMG is using the new 4.0, they're not going to give lesser E class models the 8, so it looks like they're at least staying on the upper trims. Audi I hope keeps that 4.0 they developed with VW. As for BMW, can't wait for the G30 M550i, even if it's the old 4.4, I'm sure it will be updated and fantastic.
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      03-15-2016, 05:15 AM   #19
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A 4.0L TT BMW V8 exists...hiding in plain sight. N63B40. It's only used in a small number of markets in X5, X6, and 650iX. Don't know too much about it other than 402bhp output as there isn't a much reference to it in English.
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      03-15-2016, 09:40 AM   #20
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Hmmm, that's very interesting.
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      03-15-2016, 01:48 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miamiten View Post
A 4.0L TT BMW V8 exists...hiding in plain sight. N63B40. It's only used in a small number of markets in X5, X6, and 650iX. Don't know too much about it other than 402bhp output as there isn't a much reference to it in English.
Google seems to suggest you are correct.

Of course, in any case, it's the same as the 4.4L with a shorter stroke and/or smaller bore. Probably done for regulatory reasons.

Audi and Mercedes have an advantage in that they've designed V8s around commonalities with other engines in their corporate parts bin. This makes them more compact than BMW's (from memory, 91mm and 90mm bore center respectively vs. BMW's 98mm).
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      03-16-2016, 12:38 PM   #22
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I have been going over the future offerings from Quattro and AMG. Could the top model 5er actually be something along the lines of an M540i? Then the M5 would be the only model with an 8...
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