[NightWriter]

Well the M235i made it, but the 3-series is a no show again.

Article: http://www.caranddriver.com/features...d-more-feature

Interestingly, there are (very) short complaints about the models that didn't make it. For the 328i/340i M-Sport, Tony Quiroga offers this nugget with respect to "deficient dynamics": “This car needs more help.” His only other remark captured here is for the M-B C450 AMG Sport: “The methadone of AMG cars,” whatever that means. Though E-I-C Eddie Alterman apparently disagrees with the latter in his column.

[ft1330]

Internet "journalism" has become this extremely lazy thing where authors do nothing more than read specs on manufacturers websites and peruse the Web looking for other reviews. I bet even this forum is a major source of inspiration. And who knows where their damn pics are pulled from.

[dalto]

I liked this quote:

Mercedes-AMG C63 S
“Big, dirty fun, but so are fat hookers.”
—J. Phillips

[tturedraider]

Yes, I'm sure the Accord has superb dynamics. They seem very fluid in deciding what they're looking for. If they used the same criteria that netted the M235i a win in the size category for the Accord and the 3er there's virtually no way the 340i M Sport, the Merc AMG C450, or the ATS V Sport wouldn't have come out the winner.

[tgyberg]

Originally Posted by dalto

I liked this quote:

Mercedes-AMG C63 S
“Big, dirty fun, but so are fat hookers.”
—J. Phillips

Lol. Altho I have to disagree, I see nothing fun about a fat hooker!

[rking117]

Originally Posted by tgyberg

Lol. Altho I have to disagree, I see nothing fun about a fat hooker!

If you like cheese i suppose so but nassy in my book.

[goj]

The C&D first drive was very positive for the 340i. The suspension is excellent and the steering in sport mode is incredibly precise.

Still an excellent car. Regardless of what they say. It seems like they (and everyone on the Internet) think the world is coming to an end because the steering is good, not great.

[RedRaiderDavid]

I call BS on this entire article. We have a splattering of electric cars, sports cars and 4 door grocery getters ranging from $20k to over $100k in price. I don't trust the judgement of someone that lumps a Cayman and Boxter together as essentially the same car. Ten best lists are worthless if they aren't done by buyer group as the buyer for a Tesla S is not the buyer for a Honda Accord and neither are the same buyer as a Camaro.

They say the 3 series needs more help but the 235i has essentially the same drivetrain as a 335i/340i and while CD picks the 235 as a 10 best Road and Track had very little good to say about it.

Obviously this was written by some hacks who were told they couldn't pick Toyota Prius for all 10 spots, or at all.

[sygazelle]

Originally Posted by ft1330

Internet "journalism" has become this extremely lazy thing where authors do nothing more than read specs on manufacturers websites and peruse the Web looking for other reviews. I bet even this forum is a major source of inspiration. And who knows where their damn pics are pulled from.

I'm pretty certain that car "journalists" are movie critics from another lifetime and vice versa. If they say something positive, they are
whores of the movie studios/car companies, so they have to come up with negative stuff and sensationalized comments to get eyeballs, none of which have anything to do with the goodness or badness of movies or cars. Don't listen to any of them. Go see the movies you want to see. Go test drive cars for yourself. Don't listen to the slop trying to pass as good journalism.

[300hp]

I was keen to see how this thread would turn out. Having been an observer here at bimmerpost since 2010 and a poster since 2012 the C/D ten best has always been a time for some excitement over here. I am sure if you look back to 2010 when the 3er was a part of the 10 best you would find multiple pages of posts. Even last year when the 3/4 were dropped there were still multiple pages of posts. This year for the week this thread has been up only 8 posts excluding this one. I had to rescue this thread from 4 pages down where it was buried. C/D ten best is no longer a source for any excitement around these parts.

Now that we have this disconnect between the 3/4 series crowd and C/D the question is who wins? BMW which continues to sell record numbers of cars since the introduction of the F series or C/D which clearly has lost it following of BMW owners?

[rolltidef32]

Originally Posted by 300hp

I was keen to see how this thread would turn out. Having been an observer here at bimmerpost since 2010 and a poster since 2012 the C/D ten best has always been a time for some excitement over here. I am sure if you look back to 2010 when the 3er was a part of the 10 best you would find multiple pages of posts. Even last year when the 3/4 were dropped there were still multiple pages of posts. This year for the week this thread has been up only 8 posts excluding this one. I had to rescue this thread from 4 pages down where it was buried. C/D ten best is no longer a source for any excitement around these parts.

Now that we have this disconnect between the 3/4 series crowd and C/D the question is who wins? BMW which continues to sell record numbers of cars since the introduction of the F series or C/D which clearly has lost it following of BMW owners?

Well, before we go and bury C/D and kick some dirt, lets take the time to examine what's really happened here...

This is a forum of mostly owners, not just fanboys, and as owners, we've already put down on which side we fall; we praise the 3/4 series.

However, there is some truth in that the Fxx platform sold out a bit in favor of both efficiency, and mass market appeal to the droning sheep known as the American consumer. Americans are strange people, and we're fat, rather wealthy, and spend a lot of time in traffic, yet the US is expansive. These factors affect not only how we drive, but what we drive. This is the land where a POS pickup truck is the #1 vehicle, even though most of those who buy them don't use them for work. We are also the same people who've tolerated GM garbage for decades now; still holding on to the nostalgia of the 60's.

Being so fat, our cars have again gone large. Also, having to drive among so many hideous pickup trucks and SUVs make many feel unsafe in smaller cars. This is foolish and inaccurate, but perception is reality.

C/D and the other auto journalists liken themselves to purists on a manufacturer by manufacturer bases. They like car companies to hold true to who "they" are and not chase the trends. To magazines, BMW should make small, light, manual shifting, sport oriented cars. I tend to agree with this notion, but I also understand that BMW can't survive and definitely not grow by only catering to the enthusiast crowd. BMW is not what was formerly known as Porsche, which wouldn't change for much at all; not even technology, but they too have of late, "sold out"

Auto journalists don't like change very much at all. They also enjoy setting shit on fire and watching the world burn, so the stir the pot.

In all actuality, the 2 series is a better drivers car than the 3/4, but even it isn't perfect. The 228i with the Track Package is about as close to perfect as any modern car can get as far as engagement. Yet, the 235i is a fat pig at over 3500lbs. Yes, it's small, but it's heavier than it needs to be by about 150lbs.

And so is the way of the world....

I enjoy the current 3/4 series, just don't love them. C/D is basically sharing the same observation and by doing so, challenges BMW to stop being so damn lazy and pandering to the Lexus/whatever pansy asses and get back to making proper cars with some soul baked back in.

But alas...

Just as evident even here on this forum far too often, modern consumers seem to be more interested in the cosmetics of the car and trying to "look" cool, rather than being focused on actually driving a BMW that actually drives like a BMW.

[300hp]

Originally Posted by rolltidef32

Well, before we go and bury C/D and kick some dirt, lets take the time to examine what's really happened here...

This is a forum of mostly owners, not just fanboys, and as owners, we've already put down on which side we fall; we praise the 3/4 series.

However, there is some truth in that the Fxx platform sold out a bit in favor of both efficiency, and mass market appeal to the droning sheep known as the American consumer. Americans are strange people, and we're fat, rather wealthy, and spend a lot of time in traffic, yet the US is expansive. These factors affect not only how we drive, but what we drive. This is the land where a POS pickup truck is the #1 vehicle, even though most of those who buy them don't use them for work. We are also the same people who've tolerated GM garbage for decades now; still holding on to the nostalgia of the 60's.

Being so fat, our cars have again gone large. Also, having to drive among so many hideous pickup trucks and SUVs make many feel unsafe in smaller cars. This is foolish and inaccurate, but perception is reality.

C/D and the other auto journalists liken themselves to purists on a manufacturer by manufacturer bases. They like car companies to hold true to who "they" are and not chase the trends. To magazines, BMW should make small, light, manual shifting, sport oriented cars. I tend to agree with this notion, but I also understand that BMW can't survive and definitely not grow by only catering to the enthusiast crowd. BMW is not what was formerly known as Porsche, which wouldn't change for much at all; not even technology, but they too have of late, "sold out"

Auto journalists don't like change very much at all. They also enjoy setting shit on fire and watching the world burn, so the stir the pot.

In all actuality, the 2 series is a better drivers car than the 3/4, but even it isn't perfect. The 228i with the Track Package is about as close to perfect as any modern car can get as far as engagement. Yet, the 235i is a fat pig at over 3500lbs. Yes, it's small, but it's heavier than it needs to be by about 150lbs.

And so is the way of the world....

I enjoy the current 3/4 series, just don't love them. C/D is basically sharing the same observation and by doing so, challenges BMW to stop being so damn lazy and pandering to the Lexus/whatever pansy asses and get back to making proper cars with some soul baked back in.

But alas...

Just as evident even here on this forum far too often, modern consumers seem to be more interested in the cosmetics of the car and trying to "look" cool, rather than being focused on actually driving a BMW that actually drives like a BMW.

Does BMW chase trends or does BMW develop new trends?

Does Mercedes follow trends or does Mercedes develop new trends?

Does C/D even have a say in the direction these two go?

I guess to answer my own questions here I would go with yes, yes and no.

My take is BMW has not lost its focus at all ( neither has Mercedes for example). Rather what BMW has done is to take advantage of the diversity it can offer. 2 series for those who consider themselves the true enthusiasts (E46). C/D et al is all over that. They set the 3/4/5/6/7 to offer more bandwidth, no mperformance for those who don't want it and make such parts available for those that do.

[rolltidef32]

Originally Posted by 300hp

Does BMW chase trends or does BMW develop new trends?

Does Mercedes follow trends or does Mercedes develop new trends?

Does C/D even have a say in the direction these two go?

I guess to answer my own questions here I would go with yes, yes and no.

My take is BMW has not lost its focus at all ( neither has Mercedes for example). Rather what BMW has done is to take advantage of the diversity it can offer. 2 series for those who consider themselves the true enthusiasts (E46). C/D et al is all over that. They set the 3/4/5/6/7 to offer more bandwidth, no mperformance for those who don't want it and make such parts available for those that do.

I agree with your assessment here. Like I said, they do it for survival as a company.

Just like Porsche can only sell so may 911s, and needed to diversify, BMW did the same. Think it's the iconic name of the 3 series that has people bent out of shape. The car has just matured.

Enthusiasts still have the 2 series. A little weight loss and the car would be even better.

[300hp]

Just to go off on a different tangent here but if we pick say the ATS 3.6, how can Cadillac compete with the 340i. If we are going to look at the possible permutations:

AT/MT with sport transmission
AT/MT w/out sport suspension

340i
To be honest not even sure if the 340i is the competitor for the 3.6 given the 328i is at par with the 3.6 iro performance but whatever (the 330i will beat both anyway once it's out)

Let's use MT

MT base line
MT baseline with mperformance suspension
MT baseline with PPK and mperformance suspension
MT with PPK

Add different brakes, different transmission, the fact that the 328 is just as competitive with the 3.6, LSD, xdrive etc then it's hard to comprehend what exactly Cadillac is targeting in the BMW portfolio. The target is for lack of a better word, fluid.

You can substitute the 3.6 with Lexus, Acura, S4/5. Not sure about Mercedes, I just feel those guys are playing their own game over there. They really don't give a f*** what BMW is doing imo

With the M3/4 it gets a little easier to benchmark since it's a more specialized setup. It comes off the assembly line with fewer modifications that don't have as much of an impact on performance than say PPK, Mperformance suspension and LSD would have to a 3er for example

BMW really played to their strengths with the F series

[goj]

Originally Posted by 300hp

Just to go off on a different tangent here but if we pick say the ATS 3.6, how can Cadillac compete with the 340i. If we are going to look at the possible permutations:

AT/MT with sport transmission
AT/MT w/out sport suspension

340i
To be honest not even sure if the 340i is the competitor for the 3.6 given the 328i is at par with the 3.6 iro performance but whatever (the 330i will beat both anyway once it's out)

Let's use MT

MT base line
MT baseline with mperformance suspension
MT baseline with PPK and mperformance suspension
MT with PPK

Add different brakes, different transmission, the fact that the 328 is just as competitive with the 3.6, LSD, xdrive etc then it's hard to comprehend what exactly Cadillac is targeting in the BMW portfolio. The target is for lack of a better word, fluid.

You can substitute the 3.6 with Lexus, Acura, S4/5. Not sure about Mercedes, I just feel those guys are playing their own game over there. They really don't give a f*** what BMW is doing imo

With the M3/4 it gets a little easier to benchmark since it's a more specialized setup. It comes off the assembly line with fewer modifications that don't have as much of an impact on performance than say PPK, Mperformance suspension and LSD would have to a 3er for example

BMW really played to their strengths with the F series

The F series are great cars, best reflects me and any "flaw" is nitpicking. The fact remains it is a very fun car to drive. Sometimes the only opinion on a car that matters is our own.

[AudiA4]

I have an E90 330i and an F30 335i, both 6MT. The 330i is a great car...the 335i, good...not great. Is it still best in class? Perhaps, but for reasons likely not tied to driving dynamics. It's no surprise to anyone except people on this forum that it's not a C/D Top Ten car. It's hard to argue with the list (including two VERY solid contenders from GM).

[P-Bass]

Originally Posted by goj

The F series are great cars, best reflects me and any "flaw" is nitpicking. The fact remains it is a very fun car to drive. Sometimes the only opinion on a car that matters is our own.

True, my opinion is I would like to see BMW work on their Electric Steering. Porsche, Ford, GM (read the reviews on the new Camaro) all receive praise for the progress, feel they have achieved. BMW should at least offer an option ,maybe the M-Sport, for people (me) who want a more aggressive car. I understand the business case etc, for the first time in 20+ years I am considering something other than BMW. I'll probably end up in a M2, but I am looking outside the Mothership.

[300hp]

Originally Posted by PSA955

True, my opinion is I would like to see BMW work on their Electric Steering. Porsche, Ford, GM (read the reviews on the new Camaro) all receive praise for the progress, feel they have achieved. BMW should at least offer an option ,maybe the M-Sport, for people (me) who want a more aggressive car. I understand the business case etc, for the first time in 20+ years I am considering something other than BMW. I'll probably end up in a M2, but I am looking outside the Mothership.

I think this should be encouraged. The more people like you start buying the camaros, ATSs, IS350s, Cadillac CTSs etc then the more likely that model will be pursued by most manufacturers.

The camaro V8 costs much less than a loaded 328i. So there is more bang for the buck and it made the C/D top ten list

However I think we can all agree that this is a very unlikely scenario.

[P-Bass]

Originally Posted by 300hp

I think this should be encouraged. The more people like you start buying the camaros, ATSs, IS350s, Cadillac CTSs etc then the more likely that model will be pursued by most manufacturers.

The camaro V8 costs much less than a loaded 328i. So there is more bang for the buck and it made the C/D top ten list

However I think we can all agree that this is a very unlikely scenario.

Correct, I'm sure I'd love driving the new Camaro SS, but don't want to live with it.

[goj]

Originally Posted by PSA955

True, my opinion is I would like to see BMW work on their Electric Steering. Porsche, Ford, GM (read the reviews on the new Camaro) all receive praise for the progress, feel they have achieved. BMW should at least offer an option ,maybe the M-Sport, for people (me) who want a more aggressive car. I understand the business case etc, for the first time in 20+ years I am considering something other than BMW. I'll probably end up in a M2, but I am looking outside the Mothership.

I really don't think they need to work on it, I think they could tune it they way they see fit. It's a marketing decision rather than an engineering issue.

What would be more realistic is a more comprehensive M-performance Kit as a factory option that includes steering tuned for more feel, mppk, exhaust.

[rolltidef32]

Originally Posted by goj

I really don't think they need to work on it, I think they could tune it they way they see fit. It's a marketing decision rather than an engineering issue.

What would be more realistic is a more comprehensive M-performance Kit as a factory option that includes steering tuned for more feel, mppk, exhaust.

I honestly blame the devil's brew of both electronic steering and RFTs, that rob newer BMWs of feel.

Taking off my RFTs helped a ton. Sure, there can still be some work done, but my F32 has much more feel than my Jan 2012 build F30 had, even though I didn't hate it.

As for the Camaro, I fully expect an American magazine based in Detroit to over sell an American car, deserving of praise or not. Hell, I remember when the Taurus was on the 10 best list and was car of the year in another publication; both were a joke.

The Camaro is bloated and big. Sorry, but that's not all that sporty. Don't bring up HP, because HP doesn't mean what you may think on its surface. No the Camaro isn't quite trash, but it's a cheap thrill. Cheap plastics and all, but as I've stated earlier, the American Consumer isn't always an intelligent lot when it comes to automobiles. I'll use the Hummer as exhibit A....

The Camaro is also not a very mature car; sure, it has it's place, but it is not a competitor to the 3 series. Different goals for different buyers/drivers.

[goj]

Originally Posted by rolltidef32

I honestly blame the devil's brew of both electronic steering and RFTs, that rob newer BMWs of feel.

Taking off my RFTs helped a ton. Sure, there can still be some work done, but my F32 has much more feel than my Jan 2012 build F30 had, even though I didn't hate it.

As for the Camaro, I fully expect an American magazine based in Detroit to over sell an American car, deserving of praise or not. Hell, I remember when the Taurus was on the 10 best list and was car of the year in another publication; both were a joke.

The Camaro is bloated and big. Sorry, but that's not all that sporty. Don't bring up HP, because HP doesn't mean what you may think on its surface. No the Camaro isn't quite trash, but it's a cheap thrill. Cheap plastics and all, but as I've stated earlier, the American Consumer isn't always an intelligent lot when it comes to automobiles. I'll use the Hummer as exhibit A....

The Camaro is also not a very mature car; sure, it has it's place, but it is not a competitor to the 3 series. Different goals for different buyers/drivers.

I haven't said one thing about the camaro