[moldcad]

Sort of a late observation, after suffering from the infamous throttle lag (dealy, tip-in) problem - first in my previous F10 528xi, now in my M235i and Golf 7 R. The thing is that we usually only get rid of some of the electronic nannies (DSF off completely, or at lest DTC on) when driving spiritedly - but then, we usually also switch Sport mode on, don't we? This changes the sfift points of our AT, so the increades RPM gets rid (mostly) of the throttle lag by itself...

But imagine now being in Comfort mode - either standing still at the traffic lights, or just cruising with the miserable 1200 RPM on the tachometer. Sudden opening of throttle will almost always make you wait a little before the car starts accelerating... Today I experimented a little and switched DSC off completely while staying in Comfort mode - a rather unusual combination... Guess what: no threttle delay/lag/hesitation whatever you call it!

Conclusion: at least partially, those hesitation moments are caused by DSC intervening and cutting power when by opening the throttle we are expecting immediate acceleration! It's understandable considering that our turbo engines output considerable torque even at such low RPM, hence DSC intervention... To me, the throttle dekay mystery has been solved by this observation. Please try yourself; comments welcome.

[pikcachu]

Originally Posted by moldcad

Sort of a late observation, after suffering from the infamous throttle lag (dealy, tip-in) problem - first in my previous F10 528xi, now in my M235i and Golf 7 R. The thing is that we usually only get rid of some of the electronic nannies (DSF off completely, or at lest DTC on) when driving spiritedly - but then, we usually also switch Sport mode on, don't we? This changes the sfift points of our AT, so the increades RPM gets rid (mostly) of the throttle lag by itself...

But imagine now being in Comfort mode - either standing still at the traffic lights, or just cruising with the miserable 1200 RPM on the tachometer. Sudden opening of throttle will almost always make you wait a little before the car starts accelerating... Today I experimented a little and switched DSC off completely while staying in Comfort mode - a rather unusual combination... Guess what: no threttle delay/lag/hesitation whatever you call it!

Conclusion: at least partially, those hesitation moments are caused by DSC intervening and cutting power when by opening the throttle we are expecting immediate acceleration! It's understandable considering that our turbo engines output considerable torque even at such low RPM, hence DSC intervention... To me, the throttle dekay mystery has been solved by this observation. Please try yourself; comments welcome.

There is no such thing as DSC OFF in Comfort mode....
DSC OFF it's a mode on it's own..different from comfort and different from sport and sport +

DSC OFF = throttle map in comfort, suspension in sport, ASD on, eLSD on

[moldcad]

OK, you're right, that's how it works. But does it change a thing in my decription/observation? By suggesting "try WOT while [your DSC is OFF = throttle map in comfort, suspension in sport, ASD on, eLSD on] I simply meant "put the driver's experience rocker to Comfort and turn DSC off, or at least DCT on - you will see that by allowing even so slight wheel spin in the very first split second (which N55 in M235i, or the 300hp engine in the R, are plenty capable of), your engine will react instantly and without the "throttle lag", which in fact is torque drop caused by DSC when it's on. Interestingly (and annoyingly) enough, while it only takes a minimal spin for the torque cut which is executed lightingly fast (for safety reason) - the recovery from limited to normal torque level is very slow - and this is why we call it "a lag/tipin/delay" (pick whatever suits you)...

PS. Did you get my point this time, or should I prepare a longer, elaborated version for you?

[pikcachu]

Originally Posted by moldcad

OK, you're right, that's how it works. But does it change a thing in my decription/observation? By suggesting "try WOT while [your DSC is OFF = throttle map in comfort, suspension in sport, ASD on, eLSD on] I simply meant "put the driver's experience rocker to Comfort and turn DSC off, or at least DCT on - you will see that by allowing even so slight wheel spin in the very first split second (which N55 in M235i, or the 300hp engine in the R, are plenty capable of), your engine will react instantly and without the "throttle lag", which in fact is torque drop caused by DSC when it's on. Interestingly (and annoyingly) enough, while it only takes a minimal spin for the torque cut which is executed lightingly fast (for safety reason) - the recovery from limited to normal torque level is very slow - and this is why we call it "a lag/tipin/delay" (pick whatever suits you)...

PS. Did you get my point this time, or should I prepare a longer, elaborated version for you?

It makes sense.... with DSC off there will be no intervention... just probably not the safest mode to drive on wet/slippery conditions

[Xiaoxi]

The reason for DSC OFF requiring comfort throttle is because sport throttle would probably result in some nasty accidents or even death...

For track / racing, people say the comfort (regular) throttle is more suitable because it is linear in input response. DSC OFF is the real track mode.

[moldcad]

True, even though totally off-topic

In a long fast drift the driver controls the car in 10% with the steering wheel, and 90% is throttle control (rear end mitigation), so it's obvious its action must be of "high resolution" so to speak - hence the need for normal and not a sharp throttle.

[moldcad]

Wait! On another thought, Xiaoxi 's remark was not that much off-topic with regards to my OP: with DSC off, not only does the throttle become "comfort" (=more precise than in Sport mode), but it slaso must not have any lag (or it wouldn't be precise and "high-res" enough). This confirms my thesis: DSC off=no torque limiting, hence no throttle delay.

[moldcad]

Oh, and one important fact that I forgot to mention in my OP: if you try try break the rear loose so that DSC intervenes, you will notice the yellow light indicating so will only flash briefly, and with some delay this is why in good grip conditions, WOT in comfort mode deoes trigger DSC (i.e. cuts the torque momentarily), but the indicator light will even not blink before the grip is regained and the car accelerates. This is why we often blame the hesitation on throttle response - as not having evidence in DSC light flashing, like it does in slippery conditions - it doesn't occur to us DSC just DID cut the torque output for a splitsecond...

[1LegitM235i]

Hey Moldcad, great info and thanks for sharing.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by Xiaoxi

The reason for DSC OFF requiring comfort throttle is because sport throttle would probably result in some nasty accidents or even death...

For track / racing, people say the comfort (regular) throttle is more suitable because it is linear in input response. DSC OFF is the real track mode.

You may not know this, but back in the days before computer controlled stability and traction, we had RWD cars that still had quite a bit of power.
And guess what?
We still didn't go off the road causing nasty accidents and such.

Seats belts and better tires have done much more for vehicle safety than stability and traction controls.
Those items are there to help people who can't seem to learn how to do it for themselves.

Unless one is a complete meat-head, who has no sense of steering and throttle control, then you can drive in complete safety with no traction or stability controls in play.
Those items are there to help the unaware driver who wants to drive but not consciously.
With full DSC on the driver will not get anywhere near the great limits these cars have. TC especially engages quite early, and often too early especially in winter where people can get stuck in their driveways on light snow on an incline, and don't realize they may need to turn TC OFF so that they can actually get some wheel spin.
Oh NO! Don't turn TC off you'll go off into a ditch!

[hyperzulu]

Originally Posted by RPM90

TC especially engages quite early, and often too early especially in winter where people can get stuck in their driveways on light snow on an incline, and don't realize they may need to turn TC OFF so that they can actually get some wheel spin.
Oh NO! Don't turn TC off you'll go off into a ditch!

The manual and every wording from BMW states that you should use DTC in the snow, as they are the first to admit that some wheel spin is beneficial in certain situations.

DSC is just Big Brother trying to control you, right? Yeah, back in the day nobody slid off the road and died in bad weather. I'll believe that.

[caycep]

i was told under good authority that the car was designed with a small catapult that threw you into the ditch once DSC was turned off

[nike001]

Modern day cars are mitigating power/torque when you don't even know it, just like moldcad said in post #8. I'm not sure how/where OP learned to drive but I've never experienced anything like he's mentioned in his dozens of posts and multiple threads complaining about whatever issue he may having (that I'm still entirely unsure of what he's talking about)

In everyday driving, one would/should never notice DTC/DSC intervening.. and only under some pretty significant slip conditions will the light flash. You know what would happen if that light flashed every time DTC activated? HELL. HUNDREDS of people complaining about the light, saying the BMW is junk. I had to show a middle-aged woman who works in an ER near me how that she has to PUSH her high-beam arm for the high beams to come on, not hold it backwards because "they never stay on." People like her are the people that'd be complaining about the flashing light.

These cars are made for the masses, with BMW basically having to assume 100% of the people buying their cars know NOTHING about cars except how to go forwards and backwards. Would normal know-nothing people want to see the DTC light flashing every time she got on the car? No way. So because every-day brain-dead people wouldn't want to see it, us 'enthusiasts' don't get to see it either. People buying the brand now usually don't care how they drive, their technologies or anything else - they just want the magical BMW badge. That's what's happening to this brand in the modern-day.

In the mean-time, I'll drive in Comfort/Sport with seemingly no issues, Sport+ when I want some nannies preventing me from being too sideways and/or destroying my rear tires and DSC off when I feel like annihilating a set of rear tires

[Xiaoxi]

Originally Posted by RPM90

You may not know this, but back in the days before computer controlled stability and traction, we had RWD cars that still had quite a bit of power.
And guess what?
We still didn't go off the road causing nasty accidents and such.

It's not hard to believe that the lack of stability / traction control contributed to serious accidents...

Reading between the lines, I was saying that BMW is trying to minimize such risks for their own good.

[adema24]

Originally Posted by RPM90

You may not know this, but back in the days before computer controlled stability and traction, we had RWD cars that still had quite a bit of power.
And guess what?
We still didn't go off the road causing nasty accidents and such.

Seats belts and better tires have done much more for vehicle safety than stability and traction controls.
Those items are there to help people who can't seem to learn how to do it for themselves.

Unless one is a complete meat-head, who has no sense of steering and throttle control, then you can drive in complete safety with no traction or stability controls in play.
Those items are there to help the unaware driver who wants to drive but not consciously.
With full DSC on the driver will not get anywhere near the great limits these cars have. TC especially engages quite early, and often too early especially in winter where people can get stuck in their driveways on light snow on an incline, and don't realize they may need to turn TC OFF so that they can actually get some wheel spin.
Oh NO! Don't turn TC off you'll go off into a ditch!

Couldn't have said it better myself, brother! My first sports car was a 95 M3, which came from the factory with NO electronic fun zapping nannies.

If you believe that must drive this car with DSC/DTC/whatever engaged for fear of wrecking, then you shouldn't be driving this car.

[allthatisntnow]

I don't think its fair for anyone to be saying how someone should or shouldn't be driving their vehicle that they've bought with their money. Its entirely up to them. Some people consider having electronic aids enabled on public roads; in adverse weather a way of being able to enjoy the car with a greater margin of safety for themselves and those around them. No harm in that.

[Xiaoxi]

Originally Posted by adema24

Couldn't have said it better myself, brother! My first sports car was a 95 M3, which came from the factory with NO electronic fun zapping nannies.

If you believe that must drive this car with DSC/DTC/whatever engaged for fear of wrecking, then you shouldn't be driving this car.

E36 M3 had 240 bhp... that's a 328i today. Furthermore it did not have different drive modes. It was always on "comfort"...

Again, this is done so that BMW can reduce their liability.

[nike001]

Originally Posted by Xiaoxi

E36 M3 had 240 bhp... that's a 328i today. Furthermore it did not have different drive modes. It was always on "DSC OFF"...

Again, this is done so that BMW can reduce their liability.

Fixed that for you. The e36 M3 also had a limited slip differential. That car is just as potent mid corner as an E46 M3, as well as an M235i.

Nowhere near the same car as an F30 328.

[Xiaoxi]

Originally Posted by nike001

Fixed that for you.

Thanks, yea that's more accurate. I meant "comfort" throttle.

[1LegitM235i]

Sorry OP to "drift" off topic a bit. I remember when I first picked up my 98' 540i, I think it was a month or two that I was driving it until I took it in for a service. The manager asked me did I know my traction control was off. I didn't know at that time that the triangle with an exclamation point and a round arrow was the warning light. Guest what? I never lost control of that car during any of my spirited driving. But having the driving discipline helped.

Unfortunately because of lack of awareness and discipline, we now live in a world today with many safety technology that is standard in our cars. And you know what? I think that's okay! That's the culture we live in and the generations of kids today may need that added safety tech. At least it's still an option to turn it on or off (DSC).

[SteveInfante]

So after seeing this thread I decided to drive around without DSC engaged. I really like the throttle and the way it drives versus with it in Comfort and Sport.

I learned to drive in a 1974 Trans Am that obviously didn't have any nannies. I drove in the snow in Kansas winters as well as Washington State, all without nannies.

I will most likely use the DSC off more often now that I know how the car is going to react. Even in the rain. Having driven at the limits of the car and understanding how it reacts to different inputs there makes me comfortable with getting the most out of the car I bought when I want.

[E90 87ss]

My first car didn't have ABS, Traction Control, and eventually the ECM was removed. Transmission Lock up was controlled manually and even cooling fans. I daily drove this car and after the engine swap it could go sideways at 45 mph... Never crashed or lost control and at one time my weekend commute was 124 miles each way and I was on the road at highway speeds with modern cars...

If I am driving spiritedly I turn traction control off, because I know how the car will react. Whereas I don't know how the computer will react.

An anecdote and it certainly doesn't prove anything scientifically, but I was on the expressway driving in a sudden heavy downpour that reduced visibility to probably 100-150 feet or less and traffic slowed from 65-75 mph to 35-40 mph. Anyway a newer Buick spun out in front of me and was spinning back towards me, so I gave my car 60-75% throttle, didn't want to go sideways. Tires spun a little, but once it hooked I accelerated towards them just missing them. Had i had traction control I would most certainly have been in an accident as it dials back power in order to reduce wheel spin. If I had a slower car without traction control I would have been hit by the car also...

With that said Traction control and all the nannies are not necessarily bad things, they do have their place and I do use them, but I also turn it off when I feel it is necessary.