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      09-11-2015, 06:31 PM   #1
Pparana
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GC camber plate failure/w new bearings 50 miles

I have another thread on here about the bearings failing on the ground control plates. GC did send me two new bearings so I did install with new dust boots.

I even removed my m3 LCAs and put on the stock ones. Install was with dinan springs and bump stops. Springs installed to dinan specs, I also verified orientation w dinan to be sure, but its very easy (I have swapped springs, shocks you name it since I was a kid)

Bearings both failed again, within 50 miles. Pictures will be posted below, below.

If you run these I would get them checked out. This type of failure will not be noticeable to most until catastrophic.
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      09-11-2015, 06:36 PM   #2
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Drivers Front:

Photos of Drivers front. Failure at same spot as before, where the bearing case is joined, you can see the support ends there.
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      09-11-2015, 06:44 PM   #3
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Passenger Side, same again as before, all 4 bearings failed in the exact same way.
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      09-13-2015, 05:40 AM   #4
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damn i have my stock strut destroyed with gc camber, now i installed bilstein and today i didn't take my car because after the first 200meters i felt something like a strut wasn't attached to the camber or something after 1000kms of driving with new strut B8's..

I'm thinking of going full coils but nobody offers top mounts with good coils ( bilstein, ohlins ) uses OEM mounts which breaks with H&R/bilstein combo and am afrain bilstein and ohlins coils will do the same.
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      09-13-2015, 11:33 AM   #5
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Pparana: it looks like you run a lot of camber. Which adjustment notch are aligned to?

Do you think having the slider move through an arc to keep the spring perches closer to parallel would help with this issue? It looks to me like forces radial to the strut shank are too high for the bearing retainers.

My GC bearings have not suffered this failure mode. I run stock springs with the strut nut centered on notch #2 from the max.
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      09-13-2015, 11:35 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pparana View Post
I have another thread on here about the bearings failing on the ground control plates. GC did send me two new bearings so I did install with new dust boots.

I even removed my m3 LCAs and put on the stock ones. Install was with dinan springs and bump stops. Springs installed to dinan specs, I also verified orientation w dinan to be sure, but its very easy (I have swapped springs, shocks you name it since I was a kid)

Bearings both failed again, within 50 miles. Pictures will be posted below, below.

If you run these I would get them checked out. This type of failure will not be noticeable to most until catastrophic.
What made this failure noticeable to you, besides via disassembly? What are those with sensitive ears, fingers, etc. to be on the lookout for?
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      09-13-2015, 04:05 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwalker View Post
Pparana: it looks like you run a lot of camber. Which adjustment notch are aligned to?

Do you think having the slider move through an arc to keep the spring perches closer to parallel would help with this issue? It looks to me like forces radial to the strut shank are too high for the bearing retainers.

My GC bearings have not suffered this failure mode. I run stock springs with the strut nut centered on notch #2 from the max.
Looks like your on told design, which had failures so they redesigned, which is still failing. I like the kmac plates,
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwalker View Post
Pparana: it looks like you run a lot of camber. Which adjustment notch are aligned to?

Do you think having the slider move through an arc to keep the spring perches closer to parallel would help with this issue? It looks to me like forces radial to the strut shank are too high for the bearing retainers.

My GC bearings have not suffered this failure mode. I run stock springs with the strut nut centered on notch #2 from the max.
Do you have the new design or old? Check my other post on go plates has a write up on k Mac plates, they work with various coilovers, or you could go kW club sport camber built in
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      09-13-2015, 04:11 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwalker View Post
Pparana: it looks like you run a lot of camber. Which adjustment notch are aligned to?

Do you think having the slider move through an arc to keep the spring perches closer to parallel would help with this issue? It looks to me like forces radial to the strut shank are too high for the bearing retainers.

My GC bearings have not suffered this failure mode. I run stock springs with the strut nut centered on notch #2 from the max.
Yes that is part of it, but also the point of camber plates. Your design is the old design, not sure how close they are but I know some people had bearing failure on that. My other post has my theory on why these failed, but there is a few issues at work.
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      09-13-2015, 04:16 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwalker View Post
Pparana: it looks like you run a lot of camber. Which adjustment notch are aligned to?

Do you think having the slider move through an arc to keep the spring perches closer to parallel would help with this issue? It looks to me like forces radial to the strut shank are too high for the bearing retainers.

My GC bearings have not suffered this failure mode. I run stock springs with the strut nut centered on notch #2 from the max.
Noticeable due to slightly more noise, and feel but again you have to be sensitive. I always recheck aftermarket parts in 50 60 miles very closely. Lots if track time and I prefer to be alive. Just jack up the front both sides and check for movement, if you have more than a few mm of play they are prob failing or failed. Both ends must be off ground to check or sway bar needs to be disconnected.

I run 3 degrees front. Stock springs may not fail as quick, but dinans are only 10 percent stiffer and maybe 10 percent shorter unsprung. They are very loose in the perch when car is in air w gc plates, this is not the case w stock or k Mac plates.
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      09-13-2015, 06:44 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pparana View Post
Noticeable due to slightly more noise, and feel but again you have to be sensitive. I always recheck aftermarket parts in 50 60 miles very closely. Lots if track time and I prefer to be alive. Just jack up the front both sides and check for movement, if you have more than a few mm of play they are prob failing or failed. Both ends must be off ground to check or sway bar needs to be disconnected.
Stock springs are also pretty short. When the front's off the ground on my stock springs, the bearings usually partially separate.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pparana View Post
I run 3 degrees front. Stock springs may not fail as quick, but dinans are only 10 percent stiffer and maybe 10 percent shorter unsprung. They are very loose in the perch
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pparana View Post

Stock springs on my car also have this property. They're essentially fully decompressed when the car's in the air.
when car is in air w gc plates, this is not the case w stock or k Mac plates.
K-Mac plates don't fit our cars without significant modification...

The difference with K-Mac or TC Kline plates is that they use the stock spring bearing, which is designed to not come apart when unloaded or being pulled apart by an unloaded spring.
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      09-13-2015, 10:36 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pparana View Post
Noticeable due to slightly more noise, and feel but again you have to be sensitive.
When do you feel/hear the noise? Slow speeds, high speeds, turning, stopped and running the wheel? The more detail the better thanks!
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      09-14-2015, 07:41 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwalker View Post
When do you feel/hear the noise? Slow speeds, high speeds, turning, stopped and running the wheel? The more detail the better thanks!
Over bumps or imperfections it feels like strut isn't properly attached.
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      09-14-2015, 08:41 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-terkait View Post
Over bumps or imperfections it feels like strut isn't properly attached.
M-terkait, do you have the same issue as Pparana?
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      09-14-2015, 01:20 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwalker View Post
M-terkait, do you have the same issue as Pparana?
No but my stock strut are damaged and the camber ate the top of the strut ( screw) and had to replace it with B8 struts and after 900kms on them same thing happened... going with tc kline coilovers full kit i hope its last time i change stuff.. going to burn gc camber plate..
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      09-14-2015, 01:26 PM   #15
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So why is so hard to get the camber plates working on this car?
Is there anything specifically different with other models, that they keep failing ?
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      09-14-2015, 02:31 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-terkait View Post
No but my stock strut are damaged and the camber ate the top of the strut ( screw) and had to replace it with B8 struts and after 900kms on them same thing happened... going with tc kline coilovers full kit i hope its last time i change stuff.. going to burn gc camber plate..
I have the noise you described, but have not had a bearing retainer failure like Pparana's. I've had them on and off the car more times than I can count, and the only damage to the yellow parts I've suffered was the result of careless disassembly/re-assembly (never on the car).

I can imagine how those yellow parts might fail with shorter springs: When the top spring perch becomes completely unloaded (more likely with shorter springs), the bearing can be pulled apart. The bearings are unloaded unevenly (owing to the non-parallelism of the spring perches when running aggressive camber), so you're effectively carelessly disassembling/re-assembling the bearing while going down the road.

I think a full fix will involve at least these 2 changes:
  1. having the slider move through an arc to retain perch parallelism
  2. perch bearings that better resist being pulled apart when unloaded
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      09-15-2015, 03:17 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwalker View Post
Stock springs are also pretty short. When the front's off the ground on my stock springs, the bearings usually partially separate.



K-Mac plates don't fit our cars without significant modification...

The difference with K-Mac or TC Kline plates is that they use the stock spring bearing, which is designed to not come apart when unloaded or being pulled apart by an unloaded spring.
That is not totally accurate on the kmac plates, they do not fit the strut brace because I believe bmw uses a different part in the NA market or changed the design,

Kmac is in Australia there part is designed to fit the independent arms, They have been making camber kits since the 60s for some pretty awful roads. They are very very overbuilt.

11 Strut tower brace, left 1 01/2013 51617377777
12 Strut tower brace, right 1 01/2013 51617377778

we have:

01 Strut brace 1 51617378711


photo:

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/show...81#51617378711

we have pt 1, old or other market has 11, 12

So you can try and source the other arms or just cut the connecting piece out and then they fit. Our part is like $60 so that's what I did. No issues at all. It took about 5 minutes. Also if you are running lowering springs you have to add a small (1 or 2 mm) spacer (washer) to the top where the bolt attaches so it does not bind. Otherwise there will be noise.

I have them in now and they are def. as quiet as GC were before failure.

If anyone wants instructions I can provide.
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      09-15-2015, 03:35 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pparana View Post
That is not totally accurate on the kmac plates, they do not fit the strut brace because I believe bmw uses a different part in the NA market or changed the design,

Kmac is in Australia there part is designed to fit the independent arms, They have been making camber kits since the 60s for some pretty awful roads. They are very very overbuilt.

11 Strut tower brace, left 1 01/2013 51617377777
12 Strut tower brace, right 1 01/2013 51617377778

we have:

01 Strut brace 1 51617378711


photo:

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/show...81#51617378711

we have pt 1, old or other market has 11, 12

So you can try and source the other arms or just cut the connecting piece out and then they fit. Our part is like $60 so that's what I did. No issues at all. It took about 5 minutes. Also if you are running lowering springs you have to add a small (1 or 2 mm) spacer (washer) to the top where the bolt attaches so it does not bind. Otherwise there will be noise.

I have them in now and they are def. as quiet as GC were before failure.

If anyone wants instructions I can provide.
Very illuminating! Thanks!

Can you take a pic of the washer you've described?
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      09-15-2015, 03:37 PM   #19
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yeah, I am still testing that, I should have a verified solution in a week or so, need some miles to be sure. Hate to tell you do this, and then its not right.
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      09-24-2015, 07:09 PM   #20
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300 miles on kmac , no noise whatsoever from plates, as quiet as oem.

Procedure involves the following (stock adaptive struts only, stock or lowering springs)


You will need:
From mcmaster-carr or other.

Cage Assembly for 1/2" Shaft Diameter, 15/16" OD, Steel Thrust Needle-Roller Bearing
pt # 5909K31 qty (4)


Metric Nylon Snap-in Thrust Bearing
pt # 7817K66 (2)

Product Detail
Grade 8 Steel Flat Washer, Corrosion-Resistant Coated, 1/2" Screw Size
Pt # 98180A150 (1 qty 25)


On stock strut place one washer, roller bearing and one washer on top, this will go under the plate ( on shock side)

install the nylon snap in ring in the camber plate from the top side.

Insert the strut into plate, install one washer, thrust bearing, washer and nut (factory) to secure the strut to the plate (top side).

problem solved.
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      09-25-2015, 09:04 AM   #21
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Have any pics? I'm having trouble understanding how this all works. Sounds like you've allowed the strut shank to rotate independently from the plate. Why is this necessary? What exactly was binding without this fix?

Thanks a bunch for leading the charge!
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      09-25-2015, 11:53 AM   #22
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Attached is a little drawing, hope it does not confuse. Next time I inspect in a few weeks after track I can take a photo.

This is needed for 2 reasons,

one.

there is slop in the strut top and the kmac inner dia. hole They are designed to allow the shock to move a bit which is needed. By using the nylon you still get the deflection.

Two.

The way kmac setup the movement for the horizontal plane is a large derlin bushing, this works and will continue to work as intended.

Unfortunately this bushing also makes noise when it moves. All these washers and bearings are doing is taking up some free play and allowing the strut to rotate at low speeds (city street, ext) without making noise. The larger bushing will still handle heavy loads and larger movements. Those washers are load rated for 1300 lbs each which you will never see on the strut so your all set.

To be clear these are stage 2, and I did run them before without issue but they made noise. I was just adding a few mods to make them quiet. with the mods they will be very quiet. I am anal about noises and squeaks and usually get a new car every 2 years because any rattles drive me insane.

If your tracking the car these are the way to go, they will not deflect or change the suspension geometry like many urethane based plates.
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