How much to expect from adding tweeters (base stereo)

Heylel · 07-15-2015, 03:40 PM

Hi,

I've been an avid lurker for sometime but only just signed up. Since getting my 320D Touring (10.2010, MY2011) I've been slightly annoyed with the dull sound (like so many others) - so I have read a fairly substantial number of posts here to learn a bit about what the options are

I have base stereo, Professional Nav (CIC).

While I am intrigued by the many impressive upgrades people have done, I also recognize that I am a complete beginner when it comes to wiring and car audio. I am by no means an audiophile but more a casual listener - so I was looking to start by upgrading to actually having tweeters.

I have the PNs for sails with grilles (the 201 and 202s), foam (though I plan on skimping on that and reuse what is in there already as has been advised in several threads). I am however unsure which tweeter to get - there's two different ones.
http://bmwfans.info/parts-catalog/E9...ker/#9142512_1

65139217909 Harman Kardon tweeter
65136964012 Hifi Tweeter

Incidentally, if I were to progress after this I would likely opt for something like the MB200.3 package, an MB Nano amplifier and a PnP harness from Technic, meaning that I would lose the OEM tweeters again.

Any advice from someone who has heard these tweeters in real life? Is there something to be said for buying used so they don't need breaking in - or does that not apply to tweeters?

Cheers,

H.

ptpending · 07-15-2015, 03:46 PM

consider genuine bmw alpine kit
it will provide tweeters, upgraded mids and simple amplifier with plug and play upgrade for stereo (base)

ctuna · 07-15-2015, 04:54 PM

It will make it worse due to the eq from the head unit

Heylel · 07-15-2015, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ctuna

It will make it worse due to the eq from the head unit

Hi ctuna, what will make it worse - the Alpine kit?

If the head unit is recoded to hifi, that will remedy it, correct?

Cheers,

H.

ctuna · 07-15-2015, 07:15 PM

ckegg · 07-16-2015, 02:45 AM

I have base audio, and I just added HIFI tweeters ONLY recently and it brings up upper frequencies of course. While the HU is heavily eq on base audio, it actually makes the high pitch sound too much so I have to lower down treble setting a little bit. Overall is good upgrade with small amount of money (I got both trims and tweeters from ebay for cheap).

I will do alpine kit next month and see how it goes.

mathematics · 07-18-2015, 10:08 AM

EQ on your head unit is shaped like a smile (boosted bass, no midrange, and boosted highs due to not having tweeters). you'd need to parallel the new tweeters off the midrange, and add a capacitor for a high pass filter. doing that brings down the load the amp in the head unit sees, which isn't good. i would imagine that the highs would actually be too high. your best bet is to re-code to HiFi and add an amp, then do your speaker upgrades. if you don't, you'd need to tap factory speaker level signals, input them to a DSP, flatten out the EQ and then output that to a new amp (or use a Helix PP82 which is a DSP and 8 channel amp in a package size that fits where the factory amp would be in the driver's side quarter panel.

Ali-E90 · 07-19-2015, 12:18 PM

Adding tweeters alone can be done but you'll want capacitors or a crossover to high pass them for treble only and protect the tweeters.

A) I suggest at LEAST getting a mid/tweeter component set. Will sound much better and easy to install since you'd already have the door card removed for the tweeter.

B) you could then manually turn down the treble to balance the factory EQ, but I'd strongly suggest you recode to hifi and install an amp. This will make all the other speakers sound better too, and make future upgrades (under seat woofers, trunk sub) that much easier down the line

Good luck.

Heylel · 07-22-2015, 08:03 PM

All, thanks for all the responses!

Considering the input, the most sensible route seems the Alpine kit. Favourable feedback on sound quality if HU is recoded to Hifi, delivered with harness and a lot of guides available on forums so that even a newbie like me should be able to pull it off if carefully planned.

I read a thread by makkan where he suggested that the underseat subs should be replaced with L7 subs and the rear midranges should be replaced as well. That made for the best end result.

I think I might go at this in two steps - Alpine kit and recode first, then subs and midranges later.

However, would be nice to be able to keep an eye out for the right parts.

Re subs:
I haven't been able to find L7 subs (used, brand new is a bit too pricey for my wallet) within Europe (mainly been looking on eBay) so are there any suitable alternatives that would work well with the Alpine set?

Re midranges:
Would the best bet be a set of the same Alpine midranges that goes into the front doors? Or is there a better alternative?

Cheers,

H.

snaimpally · 07-22-2015, 09:34 PM

I would go to a local sound shop that does BMW upgrades, listen to some options (Focal, Jehnert, etc.) and then decide. Use the forum to find options and use your ears to decide what to buy! Check out the Jehnert loaded doorboards. Very inexpensive considering what you get.

Ali-E90 · 07-22-2015, 11:11 PM

If you want to stick to OEM speaker locations without losing your door storage, the jenhert 3-way kit (flatline?) is a drop in replacement that gives you underseat woofers, front mids, and front tweeters.

Remember, if you code to hifi, you'll need an amp too (which you will not have if you're starting with base audio).

Heylel · 07-23-2015, 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaimpally

I would go to a local sound shop that does BMW upgrades, listen to some options (Focal, Jehnert, etc.) and then decide. Use the forum to find options and use your ears to decide what to buy! Check out the Jehnert loaded doorboards. Very inexpensive considering what you get.

Although the Jehnerts panels look very nice and not at all out of place, I would be hard pressed to give up the door storage (it's not like there's a lot of it to start with) - and I am afraid that there aren't any local soundshops that carry Jehnert :-(

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ali-323i

If you want to stick to OEM speaker locations without losing your door storage, the jenhert 3-way kit (flatline?) is a drop in replacement that gives you underseat woofers, front mids, and front tweeters.

Remember, if you code to hifi, you'll need an amp too (which you will not have if you're starting with base audio).

If I went for the Jehnert kit, I would be without a harness, which is a bit of a pain to me as I'd be paying through the nose in customs and import tax to get a Techic harness shipped here. The harness is very conveniently delivered with the Alpine kit.

I am aware that recode to hifi means amp - the front tweeters, midranges and under seats will be driven off the amp, while the two rear midranges will be running off of the HU (now flat EQ because of the recode). It is in that scenario that I am wondering which replacement for the rear midranges to get?

-------
Just to sum up, what I was envisioning was this:

Phase 1:
A. Alpine retrofit kit, meaning:
- Tweeter installation in front doors
- Midrange replacement in front doors
- Amp installation in boot
- Harness installation
B. Recode HU to Hifi

Phase 2:
C. Drop-in replacement of
- Under seat subs (but what to get that would work well with the Alpine amp and overall sound now that L7s are hard to find?)
- Rear midranges (but what to get that would be balanced well (sound wise) with the rest of the setup, since these would be running off the HU which is now recoded and has another output power?)

Cheers,

H.

Ali-E90 · 07-23-2015, 08:32 AM

If you recode to hifi, you won't be able to drive any speakers directly from the HU. Even the rear speakers will need to be amped.

Heylel · 07-23-2015, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ali-323i

If you recode to hifi, you won't be able to drive any speakers directly from the HU. Even the rear speakers will need to be amped.

Eh? What you say makes sense in the way that the coding would affect all outputs from the HU.

What confuses me is that in the install thread by makkan00 I referenced earlier (found the link: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...ghlight=alpine), he is adamant about recoding to hifi and yet there is no mention of output power to rear midranges being an issue - and there isn't indication that the rear midranges are powered by the amp. Which would also require midification to the provided harness, I would think?

What am I missing?

Cheers,

H.

Ali-E90 · 07-23-2015, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heylel

Eh? What you say makes sense in the way that the coding would affect all outputs from the HU.

What confuses me is that in the install thread by makkan00 I referenced earlier (found the link: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...ghlight=alpine), he is adamant about recoding to hifi and yet there is no mention of output power to rear midranges being an issue - and there isn't indication that the rear midranges are powered by the amp. Which would also require midification to the provided harness, I would think?

What am I missing?

Cheers,

H.

It's possible I am wrong, but I always thought that was the case. Although I started with base audio, I knew I would amp all speakers, and ended up changing my HU anyway, so can't reference anything from experience except what I remember reading before I did any of my audio work.

Check the stickies in this forum, I'm sure the info is clearly listed there. I still strongly believe that recoding to Hifi requires all speakers to be amped. Doesn't the OEM amp in a car with Hifi audio power the rear speakers too? I think it does.

Only difference between the front and rear HU outputs I can remember is that the rear outputs are high pass filtered, so you can't tap into them for a sub signal.

Good luck and let me know if I'm wrong! (or right

)

Heylel · 07-30-2015, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ali-323i

It's possible I am wrong, but I always thought that was the case. Although I started with base audio, I knew I would amp all speakers, and ended up changing my HU anyway, so can't reference anything from experience except what I remember reading before I did any of my audio work.

Have now read up on the subject. If the HU is recoded to hifi, it will affect output for all 4 channels. Rear midranges will, at best, serve as backfill to the front soundstage - they can still be driven by the HU, but won't output anything significant. However, the general consensus is that this is not a problem for this level of upgrade.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ali-323i

Check the stickies in this forum, I'm sure the info is clearly listed there. I still strongly believe that recoding to Hifi requires all speakers to be amped. Doesn't the OEM amp in a car with Hifi audio power the rear speakers too? I think it does.

As above, if you want anything significant from the rear speakers, yes. But for this kind of upgrade, not relevant. If you want all four midranges outputting equally, the Alpine kit is not for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ali-323i

Only difference between the front and rear HU outputs I can remember is that the rear outputs are high pass filtered, so you can't tap into them for a sub signal.

This is also what I've found out (through reading), so you were right.

I have made up my mind and ordered the Alpine kit (-268, the non-splice version) and have a couple of L7 underseats on their way to me from the US (had a very hard time finding these in Europe, at least at a reasonable price - including shipping and tax they'll run me up $260). Got the sails and foam inserts the other day, so that's taken care of. So while I wait, I will work on getting the coding environment up and running :-)

Cheers,

H.

ctuna · 07-30-2015, 10:55 AM

Some of us regard the rear speakers as useless.
The stereo purists here.
Indeed one of the most respected install shops use to say
"Rear Speakers are a Communist Plot"
Also I thought there were two versions of the Alpine kit
one that required coding and one that didn't.

Ali-E90 · 07-30-2015, 11:25 AM

I'm guessing the many of you who disregard the rear speakers (and even disconnect them in many cases) either have coupes or are otherwise unconcerned about potential back seat passengers
I often carry passengers in the backseat of my sedan, and like to provide them with a nice balanced audio experience while seated there. For me rears are needed for this, otherwise the bass is too overpowering with no mids/highs close to their ears to balance the sound.

I still need to upgrade my rears, but even the base audio stocks are better than nothing (maybe barely)

ckegg · 08-02-2015, 02:59 AM

I am done with the Alpine upgrade and so far the outcome is satisfied.

The rear speakers are powered by the HU and much weaker than front speakers after coding the car with $676. I won't touch the rear until I get another set of upgrade speakers and another amp to drive them.

The difference between by just adding tweeters to the front with base audio and Alpine upgrade, Alpine upgrade is the way to go. It sounds much wider and no mixing up on high and mid freqs. The base sub are bit weaker to be handled by Alpine amp, so getting L7 subs or SWS-8 may be an option.

Heylel · 08-02-2015, 05:48 AM

Hey ckegg,

thanks for sharing! Intimidating to see the car field stripped like that :-)

As you are in the US, there are more options for used L7s available to you (most L7s on eBay are in the US) . It seems that in the Alpine setup, people go for the L7s.

Out of interest, were there any issues regarding cable length and left/right hand drive installation and were the tweeter crossover cables still mislabeled? Did you pay special attention to cabling so as to avoid running speaker connections along power cables?

Cheers,

H.

ckegg · 08-02-2015, 11:13 AM

Heylel

The cable is not long enough for you to really go alone with other factory looms. If you look at the last picture I posted, the red single power cord is the Alpine power cord and I could not tie it with the factory loom together because it is bit shorter. For cables going to subs, they are just long enough if you go on lower edge of the rear seat. Again, if you look at the factory loom, they go above the rear suspension top cap, but Alpine cable is not long enough to reach it. Therefore, to be safe I connect cables to subs before tie anything up. Just look at the Alpine installation manual then you know what I am talking about.

07-15-2015, 03:40 PM	#1
Heylel Enlisted Member 6 Rep 44 Posts Drives: BMW 320D Touring (E91, MY11) Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Scandinavia iTrader: (0)	How much to expect from adding tweeters (base stereo) Hi, I've been an avid lurker for sometime but only just signed up. Since getting my 320D Touring (10.2010, MY2011) I've been slightly annoyed with the dull sound (like so many others) - so I have read a fairly substantial number of posts here to learn a bit about what the options are I have base stereo, Professional Nav (CIC). While I am intrigued by the many impressive upgrades people have done, I also recognize that I am a complete beginner when it comes to wiring and car audio. I am by no means an audiophile but more a casual listener - so I was looking to start by upgrading to actually having tweeters. I have the PNs for sails with grilles (the 201 and 202s), foam (though I plan on skimping on that and reuse what is in there already as has been advised in several threads). I am however unsure which tweeter to get - there's two different ones. http://bmwfans.info/parts-catalog/E9...ker/#9142512_1 65139217909 Harman Kardon tweeter 65136964012 Hifi Tweeter Incidentally, if I were to progress after this I would likely opt for something like the MB200.3 package, an MB Nano amplifier and a PnP harness from Technic, meaning that I would lose the OEM tweeters again. Any advice from someone who has heard these tweeters in real life? Is there something to be said for buying used so they don't need breaking in - or does that not apply to tweeters? Cheers, H.
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07-15-2015, 03:46 PM	#2
ptpending Colonel 461 Rep 2,757 Posts Drives: e91 Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Poland iTrader: (1)	consider genuine bmw alpine kit it will provide tweeters, upgraded mids and simple amplifier with plug and play upgrade for stereo (base) __________________ E81 2007 130i 6cylinder Montego blue Retrofits: Harman Kardon, High-beam assistant, Removable tow hitch. Auto-dim folding exterior mirrors. Lumbar support. Perfomance Brakes.
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07-15-2015, 04:54 PM	#3
ctuna Lieutenant General 1917 Rep 13,114 Posts Drives: 325xi 06 wagon MT Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Santa Cruz, Ca iTrader: (0)	It will make it worse due to the eq from the head unit It will make it worse due to the eq from the head unit
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07-15-2015, 07:15 PM	#5
ctuna Lieutenant General 1917 Rep 13,114 Posts Drives: 325xi 06 wagon MT Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Santa Cruz, Ca iTrader: (0)	If you recode to Hi Fi you will need an amp If you recode to Hi Fi you will need an amp. (Your statement was if I add tweeters not saying what else you would do implying just add tweeters.) then you can add tweeters and expect them to sound good. http://www.e90post.com/forums/attach...1&d=1411521234 Base System Upgrades http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=445266 http://www.monsteraudiodesign.co.uk/ http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634957 http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1003810 http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=822366 http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...1#post16679904 http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=581379 http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=451941 http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=540954 http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...ghlight=Dotech http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=495855 http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=494299 http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/...morel-jbl.html http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...1#post16679904 http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...ht=amp+upgrade http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=550771 Last edited by ctuna; 07-15-2015 at 07:21 PM..
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07-16-2015, 02:45 AM	#6
ckegg 台灣人 36 Rep 386 Posts Drives: 335i E90 Silver Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Sacramento iTrader: (10)	I have base audio, and I just added HIFI tweeters ONLY recently and it brings up upper frequencies of course. While the HU is heavily eq on base audio, it actually makes the high pitch sound too much so I have to lower down treble setting a little bit. Overall is good upgrade with small amount of money (I got both trims and tweeters from ebay for cheap). I will do alpine kit next month and see how it goes.
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07-18-2015, 10:08 AM	#7
mathematics Captain 69 Rep 994 Posts Drives: 08 328i e93 alpine white Join Date: May 2009 Location: Queens, NY iTrader: (0)	EQ on your head unit is shaped like a smile (boosted bass, no midrange, and boosted highs due to not having tweeters). you'd need to parallel the new tweeters off the midrange, and add a capacitor for a high pass filter. doing that brings down the load the amp in the head unit sees, which isn't good. i would imagine that the highs would actually be too high. your best bet is to re-code to HiFi and add an amp, then do your speaker upgrades. if you don't, you'd need to tap factory speaker level signals, input them to a DSP, flatten out the EQ and then output that to a new amp (or use a Helix PP82 which is a DSP and 8 channel amp in a package size that fits where the factory amp would be in the driver's side quarter panel. __________________ iPhone 6 Plus (iTunes library/iTunes radio/Waze, etc) to Airport Express via AirPlay. Toslink out of Airport Express to Helix P-Six DSP. PHD AF 1.C tweeters, PHD FB 4.1 midranges. Jehnert Door Cards and mid-bass'.
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07-19-2015, 12:18 PM	#8
Ali-E90 Colonel 382 Rep 2,366 Posts Drives: 2007 E90 323i (Cdn) Join Date: May 2013 Location: Toronto, Canada iTrader: (3) Garage List 2008 BMW M3 [8.00] 2007 BMW 323i [8.50]	Adding tweeters alone can be done but you'll want capacitors or a crossover to high pass them for treble only and protect the tweeters. A) I suggest at LEAST getting a mid/tweeter component set. Will sound much better and easy to install since you'd already have the door card removed for the tweeter. B) you could then manually turn down the treble to balance the factory EQ, but I'd strongly suggest you recode to hifi and install an amp. This will make all the other speakers sound better too, and make future upgrades (under seat woofers, trunk sub) that much easier down the line Good luck. __________________ Check out my Mod Thread Here
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07-22-2015, 08:03 PM	#9
Heylel Enlisted Member 6 Rep 44 Posts Drives: BMW 320D Touring (E91, MY11) Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Scandinavia iTrader: (0)	All, thanks for all the responses! Considering the input, the most sensible route seems the Alpine kit. Favourable feedback on sound quality if HU is recoded to Hifi, delivered with harness and a lot of guides available on forums so that even a newbie like me should be able to pull it off if carefully planned. I read a thread by makkan where he suggested that the underseat subs should be replaced with L7 subs and the rear midranges should be replaced as well. That made for the best end result. I think I might go at this in two steps - Alpine kit and recode first, then subs and midranges later. However, would be nice to be able to keep an eye out for the right parts. Re subs: I haven't been able to find L7 subs (used, brand new is a bit too pricey for my wallet) within Europe (mainly been looking on eBay) so are there any suitable alternatives that would work well with the Alpine set? Re midranges: Would the best bet be a set of the same Alpine midranges that goes into the front doors? Or is there a better alternative? Cheers, H.
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07-22-2015, 09:34 PM	#10
snaimpally Major 136 Rep 1,192 Posts Drives: 2011 335i MT Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Austin, TX iTrader: (9) Garage List 2011 BMW 335i [0.00]	I would go to a local sound shop that does BMW upgrades, listen to some options (Focal, Jehnert, etc.) and then decide. Use the forum to find options and use your ears to decide what to buy! Check out the Jehnert loaded doorboards. Very inexpensive considering what you get. __________________ PTF Map, Pure Turbo Stage 1, GFB DV+, Mfactory LSD, AA FMIC, B12 Pro Kit, M3 FCA, AR DP and Dynavin N6, Mosconi AS100.4, AS100.4, AS200.2, Micro Precision tweeters & woofers, Esotar2 1200
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07-22-2015, 11:11 PM	#11
Ali-E90 Colonel 382 Rep 2,366 Posts Drives: 2007 E90 323i (Cdn) Join Date: May 2013 Location: Toronto, Canada iTrader: (3) Garage List 2008 BMW M3 [8.00] 2007 BMW 323i [8.50]	If you want to stick to OEM speaker locations without losing your door storage, the jenhert 3-way kit (flatline?) is a drop in replacement that gives you underseat woofers, front mids, and front tweeters. Remember, if you code to hifi, you'll need an amp too (which you will not have if you're starting with base audio).
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07-23-2015, 08:32 AM	#13
Ali-E90 Colonel 382 Rep 2,366 Posts Drives: 2007 E90 323i (Cdn) Join Date: May 2013 Location: Toronto, Canada iTrader: (3) Garage List 2008 BMW M3 [8.00] 2007 BMW 323i [8.50]	If you recode to hifi, you won't be able to drive any speakers directly from the HU. Even the rear speakers will need to be amped.
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07-30-2015, 10:55 AM	#17
ctuna Lieutenant General 1917 Rep 13,114 Posts Drives: 325xi 06 wagon MT Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Santa Cruz, Ca iTrader: (0)	Some of us regard the rear speakers as useless. The stereo purists here. Indeed one of the most respected install shops use to say "Rear Speakers are a Communist Plot" Also I thought there were two versions of the Alpine kit one that required coding and one that didn't. Last edited by ctuna; 07-30-2015 at 11:57 AM..
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07-30-2015, 11:25 AM	#18
Ali-E90 Colonel 382 Rep 2,366 Posts Drives: 2007 E90 323i (Cdn) Join Date: May 2013 Location: Toronto, Canada iTrader: (3) Garage List 2008 BMW M3 [8.00] 2007 BMW 323i [8.50]	I'm guessing the many of you who disregard the rear speakers (and even disconnect them in many cases) either have coupes or are otherwise unconcerned about potential back seat passengers I often carry passengers in the backseat of my sedan, and like to provide them with a nice balanced audio experience while seated there. For me rears are needed for this, otherwise the bass is too overpowering with no mids/highs close to their ears to balance the sound. I still need to upgrade my rears, but even the base audio stocks are better than nothing (maybe barely)
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08-02-2015, 02:59 AM	#19
ckegg 台灣人 36 Rep 386 Posts Drives: 335i E90 Silver Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Sacramento iTrader: (10)	I am done with the Alpine upgrade and so far the outcome is satisfied. The rear speakers are powered by the HU and much weaker than front speakers after coding the car with $676. I won't touch the rear until I get another set of upgrade speakers and another amp to drive them. The difference between by just adding tweeters to the front with base audio and Alpine upgrade, Alpine upgrade is the way to go. It sounds much wider and no mixing up on high and mid freqs. The base sub are bit weaker to be handled by Alpine amp, so getting L7 subs or SWS-8 may be an option. Attached Images Last edited by ckegg; 08-02-2015 at 03:11 AM..
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08-02-2015, 05:48 AM	#20
Heylel Enlisted Member 6 Rep 44 Posts Drives: BMW 320D Touring (E91, MY11) Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Scandinavia iTrader: (0)	Hey ckegg, thanks for sharing! Intimidating to see the car field stripped like that :-) As you are in the US, there are more options for used L7s available to you (most L7s on eBay are in the US) . It seems that in the Alpine setup, people go for the L7s. Out of interest, were there any issues regarding cable length and left/right hand drive installation and were the tweeter crossover cables still mislabeled? Did you pay special attention to cabling so as to avoid running speaker connections along power cables? Cheers, H.
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08-02-2015, 11:13 AM	#21
ckegg 台灣人 36 Rep 386 Posts Drives: 335i E90 Silver Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Sacramento iTrader: (10)	Heylel The cable is not long enough for you to really go alone with other factory looms. If you look at the last picture I posted, the red single power cord is the Alpine power cord and I could not tie it with the factory loom together because it is bit shorter. For cables going to subs, they are just long enough if you go on lower edge of the rear seat. Again, if you look at the factory loom, they go above the rear suspension top cap, but Alpine cable is not long enough to reach it. Therefore, to be safe I connect cables to subs before tie anything up. Just look at the Alpine installation manual then you know what I am talking about.
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