[TopgearLA]

Im in California and am wondering if i gain much advantage of having a JB4 stage 2 BMS tune considering I wont be doing any other mods and have only 91 octane. I have been considering a Stage 1 for a while and wondering what all of you that have used either or both tunes think.

[Onesip]

I've investigated this same question for my 435i. Some on this forum will say that if a tune is the only mod you plan on making then you might as well go with the BMS stage 1 over the JB4 in map 1. But, the BMS website claims a max addition of 40hp for stage 1 and 60hp for JB4 map 1. Additionally some are saying you may even do better with the JB4 in map 5 then in map 1 even with pump gas and no other mods, but I have no data to back that up!

Stage 1 is $380 and involves pretty much a plug and play install. JB4 is $530 and requires more time to install, but still a reasonable DIY (under a few hours for the first timer). It also provides additional sophistication including clearing codes, easily changing the map and logging. The modders (if that's a word) will say choose JB4 if there is ever a chance that you may wade deeper into the mod pool later on since this is where JB4 shines, and is a non option for stage 1.

I will most likely go with JB4. It's only 150 bucks more, will probably produce more power and torque over stage 1 and provides some nice additional functionality. The only other mod I would probably ever do is a BMS intake, and that's still debatable. I will not be messing with fuel mixtures.

Personally I find BMS an attractive choice over other tuning options given it's price/performance mark (which is excellent), a good track record and decent support.

[s2k750]

I went with the stage 1 to preserve the warranty. If they want to find proof it was installed they can look at the wires that need to be tapped and the evidence is clear. Its not a secret that bmw doesn't know about, 1/2 the techs drive bmws and are on here too.

For the extra few hp the JB4 makes, I can't justify the modification and extra time. The stage 1 took me less than 2 minutes to install, would have been 1 if the clips came off easy.

[TopgearLA]

Originally Posted by s2k750

I went with the stage 1 to preserve the warranty. If they want to find proof it was installed they can look at the wires that need to be tapped and the evidence is clear. Its not a secret that bmw doesn't know about, 1/2 the techs drive bmws and are on here too.

For the extra few hp the JB4 makes, I can't justify the modification and extra time. The stage 1 took me less than 2 minutes to install, would have been 1 if the clips came off easy.

what would you say your impressions are on the stage 1?

[Buckeyes]

I'm running the stage 1 and love it. That, in addition to the afe open intake, and MPE, it's perfect. I didn't want to splice wires and the mpe sounds just about perfect. I was contemplating a downpipe but the sound, especially at cold start is just to much. I did bump the boost on the stage 1 to 4.25 over the BMs 3.5 psi setting. Car's running great and zero issues or cel lights

[TopgearLA]

Originally Posted by Trcb777

I'm running the stage 1 and love it. That, in addition to the afe open intake, and MPE, it's perfect. I didn't want to splice wires and the mpe sounds just about perfect. I was contemplating a downpipe but the sound, especially at cold start is just to much. I did bump the boost on the stage 1 to 4.25 over the BMs 3.5 psi setting. Car's running great and zero issues or cel lights

very nice. I will not even do an intake or MPE... I am new to BMW and the 435i sounds great to me versus the lack of any sound in previous cars. How do you go about changing the stage 1 PSI setting and what effect does that have on paper and that you've noticed personally?

[Livfast335]

Originally Posted by Trcb777

I'm running the stage 1 and love it. That, in addition to the afe open intake, and MPE, it's perfect. I didn't want to splice wires and the mpe sounds just about perfect. I was contemplating a downpipe but the sound, especially at cold start is just to much. I did bump the boost on the stage 1 to 4.25 over the BMs 3.5 psi setting. Car's running great and zero issues or cel lights

Yeah how did you bring the boost up??

[Buckeyes]

You need the bms usb cable, I think it's $15. Download the interface (jb3) from bms or n54 tech. The only parameter that is adjustable is the boost. The default boost is 3.5psi over stock and I think it can be bumped up to 6 psi over but that's pushing it. I've read guys running 4.5 and 5 over with no issue. I feel good at 4.25 psi and always run 93 octane. If I feel the need to go over that, I'll just upgrade to the jb4. It has other safety nets and more control to run higher boost safely. The added boost really makes it a torque monster. The amount of torque, even in 7th gear is amazing.

[mike@x-ph.com]

If you are keeping your car stock just grab a JB stage 1

[Earthmaster]

Yeah if you want closer to 4 psi you need to run 93 to be safe and or a downpipe after more boost.

[s2k750]

Originally Posted by TopgearLA

what would you say your impressions are on the stage 1?

The most improvement is when you're driving somewhat aggressively, not redlining. Between 3000-5000 the car is a monster now, after that it feels similar to stock. 1/4 mile I don't think the car will be much faster, maybe 2/10s.

The biggest improvement for me is launching. i have 275 conti dw and when i launch the car bogs then goes. Now i get a little spin, it grabs and goes!

[BEAR-AvHistory]

JB4 Map 5. System has a lot more usable features than the base one. Want to up the power of 91 pump in 3 gallons or so of E85 to a full tank. Map 5 will maximize the available horsepower without pushing you out of the fuels optimum range.

[CalCarNut]

In a Cali car, will it pass smog with a Stage 2 setup? The state is ridiculously strict with emissions and modifying/tampering.........

[GSR Technik]

Of course I'm totally biased but our GSR Technik Stage 1 flash tune is pretty damn good and takes advantage of all the built in safeguards that the ECU programming provides without forcing to the ECU to do things it doesn't like to do. This makes for a very consistent tune in all conditions. I feel confident in saying that the tune portion is better than the JB4 but the JB4 does have some cool features that we just can't do within the ECU.

Nick..

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Originally Posted by SoCalDave

In a Cali car, will it pass smog with a Stage 2 setup? The state is ridiculously strict with emissions and modifying/tampering.........

I could pass the NC test running Map 0 which is the stock BMW ECU controlling everything. Cars never had downpipes.

In CA you will fail a visual inspection if they are specifically looking for them.

[G30 B58]

Originally Posted by GSR Autosport

Of course I'm totally biased but our GSR Technik Stage 1 flash tune is pretty damn good and takes advantage of all the built in safeguards that the ECU programming provides without forcing to the ECU to do things it doesn't like to do. This makes for a very consistent tune in all conditions. I feel confident in saying that the tune portion is better than the JB4 but the JB4 does have some cool features that we just can't do within the ECU.

Nick..

If your Stage 2 tune was closer to the price of a JB4 ....... but it's not. It's double the price.

I know there had to be more R&D with your Stage 2 tune but in the end, your programming time, shipping and handling are all the same as Stage 1. Fair assumption?

[GSR Technik]

Originally Posted by F32 N55

If your Stage 2 tune was closer to the price of a JB4 ....... but it's not. It's double the price.

I know there had to be more R&D with your Stage 2 tune but in the end, your programming time, shipping and handling are all the same as Stage 1. Fair assumption?

Yep, this is a software business, the big cost is the R&D to get the code right. The piggyback technology worked much better with the older ECU technology - not as effective with the new generation of ECUs - not consistent due to how complex the adaptive capabilities of the modern ECU embedded systems are today.

You get what you pay for - JB4 you get a cheap price with an OK tune and some cool features - especially the fuel scaling and meth controls which we just can't do with ECU flash technology. With Dinan you pay a LOT for a very conservative tune that comes with the piece of mind of a secondary insurance policy.

Everyone is finding their specific niche in this market.

[Earthmaster]

Originally Posted by GSR Autosport

Yep, this is a software business, the big cost is the R&D to get the code right. The piggyback technology worked much better with the older ECU technology - not as effective with the new generation of ECUs - not consistent due to how complex the adaptive capabilities of the modern ECU embedded systems are today.

You get what you pay for - JB4 you get a cheap price with an OK tune and some cool features - especially the fuel scaling and meth controls which we just can't do with ECU flash technology. With Dinan you pay a LOT for a very conservative tune that comes with the piece of mind of a secondary insurance policy.

Everyone is finding their specific niche in this market.

I like this response, honest and straightforward. Not some marketing BS that I hear from other tuner brands trying to "slyly" but not really, to project their tune is somehow better for everyone. Much respect.

[GSR Technik]

Originally Posted by Earthmaster

I like this response, honest and straightforward. Not some marketing BS that I hear from other tuner brands trying to "slyly" but not really, to project their tune is somehow better for everyone. Much respect.

Cheers. Thanks.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by GSR Autosport

Yep, this is a software business, the big cost is the R&D to get the code right. The piggyback technology worked much better with the older ECU technology - not as effective with the new generation of ECUs - not consistent due to how complex the adaptive capabilities of the modern ECU embedded systems are today.

You get what you pay for - JB4 you get a cheap price with an OK tune and some cool features - especially the fuel scaling and meth controls which we just can't do with ECU flash technology. With Dinan you pay a LOT for a very conservative tune that comes with the piece of mind of a secondary insurance policy.

Everyone is finding their specific niche in this market.

Dont want to start an argument here. I agree with some of what you said and i disagree with other things.
I do agree that the R&D for a flash tune costs a lot more than a piggyback and that it is unreasonable to expect a flash to cost the same as Piggyback.
I also do agree that a flash can control fuel and ignition when a piggy cannot.

first thing i do not agree with you about
The piggyback technology worked much better with the older ECU technology - not as effective with the new generation of ECUs

Piggyback work a lot better on the new ECU (proven by the N54 and N55 E chassis community). The BMW ECU has the ability to adapt, adjusts fuel and timing. If that was not the case the piggy would not be able to push the car more than couple psi max.

You get what you pay for - JB4 you get a cheap price with an OK tune
Last time i checked this OK tune has the 1/4 world records, it reads and delete codes, lets users change map instantly without having to send the ECU to the tuner, let users datalog and see how the car performing, lets users create their own map without having to pay someone a fortune to do it + other cool features that you have mentioned.

It is a bit unfair to call it an OK tune sine it offers more than any other tune in this market whether it is flash or piggy.
Not trying to turn this into piggy vs flash, both have their pros and cons and as you said in your post each user has a different preference.

[GSR Technik]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

Dont want to start an argument here. I agree with some of what you said and i disagree with other things.
I do agree that the R&D for a flash tune costs a lot more than a piggyback and that it is unreasonable to expect a flash to cost the same as Piggyback.
I also do agree that a flash can control fuel and ignition when a piggy cannot.

first thing i do not agree with you about
The piggyback technology worked much better with the older ECU technology - not as effective with the new generation of ECUs

Piggyback work a lot better on the new ECU (proven by the N54 and N55 E chassis community). The BMW ECU has the ability to adapt, adjusts fuel and timing. If that was not the case the piggy would not be able to push the car more than couple psi max.

You get what you pay for - JB4 you get a cheap price with an OK tune
Last time i checked this OK tune has the 1/4 world records, it reads and delete codes, lets users change map instantly without having to send the ECU to the tuner, let users datalog and see how the car performing, lets users create their own map without having to pay someone a fortune to do it + other cool features that you have mentioned.

It is a bit unfair to call it an OK tune sine it offers more than any other tune in this market whether it is flash or piggy.
Not trying to turn this into piggy vs flash, both have their pros and cons and as you said in your post each user has a different preference.

This is the truly the debate that will linger on for a long time mostly by people who really don't know the technology (please, I'm not saying you don't) but by people who will repeat things they hear that they don't really understand.

So let's break down your comments.

I classify latest generation of ECUs as Flexray based so the most recent gen of F chassis cars - not the E class cars. Flexray is creating the ability process way more transactions on the BUS infrastructure - for example CAN supported 8 data bytes from data frame, Flexray supports 254 data bytes per data frame. All in Flexray operates more than 10x faster than CAN. This has given the over eager systems engineers the ability to implement all kinds of crazy stuff that can adjust in near real time. The adaptive designs they are implementing today based on a large number of variables were just not possible with the CAN based systems. And the engineers are getting more creative so it's just going to get worse/better depending on how you look at it. This is creating some big challenges for the piggyback systems because the increase in complexity and the lack of control at a lower level. This is where the real brute force of the piggyback systems comes in – more octane, cooler burning fuels (i.e. ethanol) and meth. Yes there are records based on these brute force methods but we’re trying to achieve is a better, higher performance tune on 91 and 93. We can add octane as well and go crazy but that really is a small part of the market. Don’t get me wrong we love doing that too – we are true enthusiasts – but are primary goal is get the most out of a car running 91 or 93 and do it as safe and efficient as possible.

In addition, the piggyback systems can do things ECU flashes can’t so we are making sure we can layer them on top of our tunes to achieve the best of both worlds. Ethanol mix maps and meth injection management are two of the big ones so you will see us releasing packages that incorporate the JB4 (because we think they are one of the best in the business) that sits on top of our tune.

Where the piggybacks are trying to go is adding more processing power, to in essence re-create the processing that is already going on with the ECU. Given the trajectory of the technology this is going to be an uphill battle. I have to mention, I loved my JB4 on my E92 335i. The top piggyback guys, e.g. Terry Burger, have been able to get a lot out of those CAN BUS based ECUs. We don't offer a product on those cars because we realize they did a good enough job where we could only offer marginal improvements and the cost wouldn't be justified.

Regarding the ability to push more psi – that’s the point about the difference between a scalpel approach and hack saw (i.e. brute force) approach. The latest generation of ECUs are torque based so you just don’t simply say in the code give me more boost, you ask for more torque and the ECU processes how it can achieve that request with all the input variables it is processing and if it can’t achieve that boost level safely it won’t do it. Likewise with A/F ratio we tell the ECU what A/F we want and it processes all the input variables and if it can’t achieve all the variables we asked it for it adapts to do the best it can. The piggyback systems are forcing the issue by hijacking variables as the ECU is trying to change them and the ECU is saying “what the hell” and then changing other variables to achieve it’s preprogrammed goal. That’s why you see a lot of the piggyback systems break up on the top end because one of the final fail safes is alt fuel maps that goes rich to cool the cylinder and reduce the chance of detonation. We see cars come in with piggyback systems that won’t even make it to redline because the car is diving rich to save itself.

Given what we are able to achieve on 91 and 93 and how safely we can do it compared to what the piggybacks can achieve I have to stick with my assessment of “OK” as far as the base tune – especially based on the inconsistency we see doing our own comparison testing. I’m not debating the other cool features the piggyback systems can offer. We’re here to raise the bar and I expect the piggybacks are going to be playing catch for a while as far as the base level tuning.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Thank you for your reply, i truly appreciate the fact that you did not turn it into a bashing thread

Of course the tuning method of piggy vs flash is completely different and yes there are pros and cons to both methods. If a solution is offered similar to what Cobb had for the E chassis then this debate would be a lot more interesting.
But at this time lots of problems with the flash method.

1) Unable to change maps or disable the map completely
2) Requires you to open and solder DME which is detectable
3) The DME will store actual boost levels which also makes it detectable
4) Currently the tuning is much more limited than what can be done via a piggyback

You also mention that a lot of JB4 cars break,which is not accurate (proven by thousands of JB4 sold). The datalog feature that JB4 offers will show you how the car is reacting to the tune. If the user does not feel 100% confident in reading logs, they can either post the log on the forum or send it to the vendor or Burger Tuning for free support.

At this time Jb4 is offering an undetectable solution, with more power, more maps, more flexibility, 100% user control, lots of great features, unlimited free firmware updates, for half the price of the jailbreak tuning. It is also the most popular solution ( by far) for F chassis, so i have to respectfully disagree with you about piggyback playing catch at this time. Things can change and more competition is always good to raise the bar as you mentioned earlier.