CCBs on Track - Feedback Collection

[FTS]

We are all lacking information on the CCB units, particularly when used on track, so with the good and the bad I thought I start a thread in which we can collect experiences to refer back in the future as we learn how to best used these units.

First event, Summit Point Jefferson Circuit, 1.1 mi. course (not the expanded version), low speed (95 mph - 105 mph front straight), 6 turns. It is a training circuit and not a racing course. It was perfect for my son's first HPDE clinic. I had the brake fluid flushed completely with two bottles of Castrol SRF before the event, everything else is stock, R888 tires.

After the first session, when my son came off the track the very first comment from him and his instructor was that the brakes had too much grip, so much so that they just could not find the proper braking point for the stop box exercise. I am certain they were exaggerating, but it was good to hear that the brakes performed.

I drove the car just few laps the next day on the same track, and to my enjoyment the pedal feel stayed superb, which generally is not the experience I had with my previous cars with irons. This is not yet a good indication of anything of course, but positive nevertheless. The good news for me has been that this track has absolutely no cooling opportunity for the brakes as the straights are very short. So far so good, the real first test will be in two week on the main circuit.

[Carl L]

Really interesting writeup, thanks for sharing. M finally took the big step forward they badly needed with the standard steel brakes which are no longer hamstrung by the single sliding calipers. I won't talk about them anymore in a CCB thread other than to say the don't wilt at the track and I'm looking forward to getting back there next month.

Then, the optional CCBs MCCBs which, in the F8x, application are a step up again and on paper are a match for any brakes on the market. Will be interested to hear if reality will bear this out but Motorsport getting serious about brakes is off to a promising start.

[CanAutM3]

Good thread

[nicknaz]

Would you mind "mythbusting" a few questions?
- cost to replace all 4 rotors
- # of time trial/DE days you expect to get per set
- lack of initial bite when cold/wet on the street

[FTS]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Would you mind "mythbusting" a few questions?
- cost to replace all 4 rotors
- # of time trial/DE days you expect to get per set
- lack of initial bite when cold/wet on the street

Truthfully, no I cannot do 'mythbusting," but I can certainly answer questions to my best knowledge My intention with this thread is to be able to collect as much information as we can, so we form more of a factual opinion. Since these brakes are brand new to BMW, we don't have enough information yet, and although they are similar, they are not the same to my knowledge to PCCBs.

• Cost to replace four Carbon Ceramic rotors will be somewhere between $12K to $17K as it has been reported. However, I do not expect to replace them with ceramic rotors; if maintenance does not cover them, and that is a big if still, I'll replace them with iron rotors and i'd still use the superb calipers with larger heat capacity both with the calipers and the pads that go along with them. To me that is a win win regardless of initial cost.
• How long the rotors will last is an open question, I really do not know. However, if all technical data is accurate and are applicable to the M brakes, they should last 2 to 3 times longer than iron rotors. Ceramic rotors are very different than iron ones in that they do not depend on abrasion to generate brake torque, but adhesion-based brake torque, which is why the rotors are so smooth and you don't wear out the outer ceramic layer as you do with irons. There is still tiny bit abrasion-based torque generated, which seems to be sufficient when all is cold. Best of both worlds in a way. The wear under normal conditions is negligible. The only way to wear down CC rotors is to oxidize them. BMW says oxidation does not start until 600 degC or 1100 degF, they leave 200 degF safety margin. Before you get to those temps on rotors your pads and fluids will fade, so I cannot yet see how I'll get to those temps, but I will measure with three different type of temp paint on track; we'll see.
• These brakes performed much better for me during DD than iron ones even during this very long sub-freezing temps, they were excellent. Initial heavy wet braking is more compromised than iron rotors and if you are not expecting it, you can have a heart attack approaching a ramp at high speed This is because, again, CC rotors generate very little abrasive friction and depend on adhesive friction. I left-foot brake 100-200 ft before I really need the brakes under those conditions, and it has not been an issue for me. Just like any tool, we need to learn how to best use them I think, but these brakes won't work for autoxers for certain

I hope this is helpful.

[nicknaz]

Thanks that is helpful. I was planning to swap calipers later on due to cost of rotor replacement. Seems like that's a viable route to go and the route you'll go too

[FTS]

That should work I believe, but also don't forget to change the brake booster as well, it is different.

[Tempe Mendoan]

the more you use it, the more you'll love it. CCB is superb !!!

[Brosef]

awesome thread. I hope we can keep this to real first hand experiences of this CCB setup. I'm so sick of hearing everyone repeat the "I know a Porsche guy and he and all his buddies have all swapped for iron rotors blah blah blah."

facts and data are seriously lacking on this new frontier, so hats off and thank you to the brave pioneers forging the trail for the rest of us

[MWcoupe]

I love that they are rock solid every damn time. It's amazing how there's no mushy feeling to the brake pedal at all,took me some time to get used to. Only downside I'll say is you really need to bleed them in well and warm them up just a bit.

[FTS]

Put the temp paint on the rotors. I am not sure they'll stay on until next weekend if there is rain, and I don't think they'll show anything during autox.

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by FTS

First event, Summit Point Jefferson Circuit, 1.1 mi. course (not the expanded version), low speed (95 mph - 105 mph front straight), 6 turns. It is a training circuit and not a racing course.

Did they fix the ridiculous tree exposure on that track yet? They better have added Armco/barriers/etc/whatever to eliminate tree exposure after the instructor death there last summer -- incredibly preventable, sadly.

Summit main has had its share of deer strikes in recent years -- be on the lookout. I've got many laps of main course (was the only course back then) imprinted in my brain. I've not driven/instructed there since 1989, but I can still replay a lap from all the fun times there in the '80s.

[AM4ZING]

Originally Posted by FTS

Put the temp paint on the rotors. I am not sure they'll stay on until next weekend if there is rain, and I don't think they'll show anything during autox.

Is this strictly designed for operation under cold temps?

[FTS]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

Did they fix the ridiculous tree exposure on that track yet? They better have added Armco/barriers/etc/whatever to eliminate tree exposure after the instructor death there last summer -- incredibly preventable, sadly.

No change at all, actually the new expansion to the track made it even worse, no curbs and 10-12 ft drops off very sharp corners. It is not a DE track, just for training; CIA, FBI and Secret Service uses that track almost all the time. The skid pad is very nice though.

Summit main has had its share of deer strikes in recent years -- be on the lookout. I've got many laps of main course (was the only course back then) imprinted in my brain. I've not driven/instructed there since 1989, but I can still replay a lap from all the fun times there in the '80s.

Not as long as you, but I've been going there for a little over 10 years, ~1200 laps maybe? Yes, the deer are still an issue during specific seasons. It is an addictive track I think; it is amazing how few inches here and there can make such big difference in lap times

Originally Posted by AM4ZING

Is this strictly designed for operation under cold temps?

I assume you mean the paint; yes they work at any temp until they reach their designed temp (I got 950, 1000 and 1100), they are very dull looking paint; when they reach their temp and they turn bright almost neon like as I understand.

[M4TW]

Great thread! Could you please elaborate on your brake flush practices - why, when and how?

[FTS]

Originally Posted by M4TW

Great thread! Could you please elaborate on your brake flush practices - why, when and how?

Thank you.

For this first flush I took it to dealer. They have power tools that attaches to the top of the reservoir and forces the fluid out. I think it is important to do a complete flush whenever you are changing fluid brands, types, etc., otherwise you are just diluting the new fluid and generally it is ineffective. Although the dealer asked for 4 bottles to do a complete flush, I only had two, so it had to be enough.

Subsequent bleeds or changes, I use a manual vacuum-based pump, start from left rear inner bleed-valve and circle around (I don't have a DIY if you are looking for that). If I use RBF600, I bleed before each track event, change every other event. If Castrol SRF I bleed every other event and change before 4th event.

I do this because brake fluid is probably the cheapest item on the car, cheaper than motor oil, it is easy to do, takes an hour, and I really dislike soft brakes

[03///m3]

Great information. Thanks for sharing. While i wait to receive an allocation for a 16' M3, i continue to switch back and forth on if i should order the car with CCB's. My M3 will be tracked at least 5 times a season. As I understand, you do not have to change the brake pads for track use? If so, that is very convenient and an appealing feature. Do you know approximately how long (how many track days for an advanced driver) the pads last?

[JNoSol]

The first Gen CCB were very problematic. That's why you heard of the early adopters (like Porsche 911 owners) bought steel brake rotor replacements. This isn't a myth, lots of those guys switched to steel (lower cost / more reliable).

CCB on our M3/M4 are fantastic (3rd Gen CCBs), as long as you don't keep it past warranty (unless a steel replacement comes out). $14k is a lot of cheddar for brake rotors.

Corrected, 3rd gen CCB.

[FTS]

Originally Posted by 03///m3

As I understand, you do not have to change the brake pads for track use? If so, that is very convenient and an appealing feature. Do you know approximately how long (how many track days for an advanced driver) the pads last?

May be during street use you may not have to change your pads, but I highly doubt during track use the pads will last any longer than 2-3 events. Obviously I do not know how the reality will shape up at this time, but I'll keep posting my experience and hopefully others will as well.

However, let's note that the brake pads are also service as heat sinks, so the thicker they are the more heat they can absorb away from the rotor. Hence, the general recommendation of changing pads before they go below 50% of their original thickness seems to be the right thing to do, and I am not going to try to find out what happens if I run them down to backing plates

Originally Posted by JNoSol

The first Gen CCB were very problematic. That's why you heard of the early adopters (like Porsche 911 owners) bought steel brake rotor replacements. This isn't a myth, lots of those guys switched to steel (lower cost / more reliable).

CCB on our M3/M4 are fantastic (2nd Gen CCBs), as long as you don't keep it past warranty (unless a steel replacement comes out). $14k is a lot of cheddar for brake rotors.

You are right about 1st gen PCCBs, but we are now at 3rd gen; 2nd gen was short lived

As a related note, Dr. Frank-Steffen Walliser, Head of Porsche GT Racing and Street Cars, and former Project Lead of the 918, said during his last interview when asked if he would option in PCCBs, "It's a good product. I am always having it on my cars, I did not consider not having it on the RS."

[SYT_Shadow]

This is a very interesting thread FTS. I drooled on myself when I saw the ccbs at the NYIAS, they look incredible.

If they hold up well to track use they are a no brainer. Just the clean wheels are sooo enticing!

[FTS]

Here are the results following the first track event: It appears the rotors did reach 950 degF, but stayed below 1,000 degF based on the paint code. The pads cooked pretty well, but they performed very well, with a slight softness of pedal but very consistent feel. Of course brake dust even after track work is negligible

[Cloud9blue]

Originally Posted by FTS

Here are the results following the first track event: It appears the rotors did reach 950 degF, but stayed below 1,000 degF based on the paint code. The pads cooked pretty well, but they performed very well, with a slight softness of pedal but very consistent feel. Of course brake dust even after track work is negligible

Wow, 950F on a 400mm rotors on a 100mph top speed track. That's pretty high. But the fact that the pads didn't glaze or melt prove that CCB works well as a dual use setup, aside from the cost issue. I wonder what kind of temp my crappy 348mm one piece rotor reach... I wouldn't worry about the look of the pad from the side, they are mostly just paint the got burnt and are in the process of flaking off. If you are motivated, you can remove the pad and see how does the contact surface held up. If they are starting to crumple or having the corners and edges chunking off, it means they are probably not up to the task then.

Curious as to how the caliper held up at such high temp. Are the dust boots, if there is any external boot on this car, are still intact? How about the brake pistons?