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      11-16-2014, 06:49 PM   #1
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E36 M3 Blasphemy?

So since we don't have much more to discuss right now beyond beating all the speculation to death, I'll take the opportunity to stir the pot a bit.

So back in 2003, I had a friend who had an E36 M3 (stock, I believe). I drove it (only once though, to be fair, and not on a track - just spirited driving on local roads).

My impressions: a nice, fun little sporty car, but...meh. I had just bought a brand new Mazda RX-8 at the time, and I felt that the M3 had only marginally better acceleration (if you knew how to drive the RX-8, which was to keep in in the 5k-9k RPM band), and no better handling than my RX-8.

Maybe it was the bias of my own purchase, but while I thought it was a good car, I didn't see what the big deal was, and still don't. I wasn't impressed with an M3 until the E46 version.

So, I wonder what all the fuss is about the E36 M3, and why would we want the M2 to be its successor. I would rather the M2 be the mother f'in M2: the start of a whole new paradigm, not the continuing legacy of a car was good, but not earthshattering.

Discuss.

Last edited by Cavpilot2k; 11-16-2014 at 06:58 PM..
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      11-16-2014, 07:19 PM   #2
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I wouldn't harp on the idea of the M2 as a legacy car for too long. The 1M was originally compared to the E30 M3, the M235i had that adorable commercial with the 2002...

Modern cars are so different from their predecessors I always find these comparisons to be dubious.

Now I'm just waiting for a new commercial for the F80 M3 to be called the new e34/9 M5. I don't think we've seen one of those yet lmao.
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      11-16-2014, 09:21 PM   #3
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What? How high are you?

The E36 M3 is awesome. It is easily one of the best cars out there, dollar for dollar against anything in the used market.

Go drive one again. It is a benchmark sports car.

...Are we really having a conversation about a car you half-heartedly drove over a decade ago, 4 years after the last example of its generation was built?

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      11-16-2014, 09:35 PM   #4
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Quote:
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What? How high are you?

The E36 M3 is awesome. It is easily one of the best cars out there, dollar for dollar against anything in the used market.

Go drive one again. It is a benchmark sports car.

...Are we really having a conversation about a car you half-heartedly drove over a decade ago, 4 years after the last example of its generation was built?

+1.
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      11-16-2014, 10:24 PM   #5
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I currently own a E36 M3/4/5 which I love. I love the balance and handling of the car and how get get direct feel from the steering. Even with the U.S. Spec S52 it is still more than enough to get me introuble. I think people are relating the E36 M3 to the new M2 mostly based on size as the new M3/M4 are pretty big cars. I can't wait to add the M2 to my Old M3. I hope the M2 is just like my 98 M3, but more modern in every sense with out the size increase. Just my $.02
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      11-17-2014, 12:33 AM   #6
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The e36 M3 was pure and unadulterated in comparison to the heavier chunkier e46 M3 which came with driving aids and and and...
It was a welterweight with a heavy weights punch lying in the front, thus making it quite the widowmaker on edge with an extremely tail happy nature. Had awesome balance and an amazing exhaust note to boot.
It is and was a very natural car, well planted but could catch you unawares.
Its just an experience to drive the e36 M3.
Still got love for these cars.
Comparison will come in by way of size and weight as well as we hoping for a similar fun factor with the new M2
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      11-17-2014, 04:44 AM   #7
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You have to drive one on a race track to get what the fuss was about
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      11-17-2014, 07:53 AM   #8
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I didn't know what the deal was about until I got mine. Was looking for a fun DD that had to be affordable. Was never in love with the E36 body style or anything, but it ticked all the boxes. Boy is it fun. On paper, it might not see like it much, but for $10k or so, I can't think of any other car I'd rather have. It's a bargain at that price, but the clean ones are hard to find nowadays. And even the US version has a smooth torquey I6.

It always gets hell for not having a "real" M engine, but if it did, I wouldn't have bought one. This thing is so simple to work on and is very reliable if you keep up with the maintenance. I can only hope the M2 is the same

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      11-17-2014, 08:59 AM   #9
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I think it would have made more of an impression on a track. Also, I am a much better performance driver now than I was 11 years ago, so I might notice its merits more if I were to drive it nowadays.

And I never said it was a crappy car - just in comparison to my RX-8 at the time I didn't see what the hoopla was about (but before you judge, you should have some experience with a 6MT RX-8 - it is a superb handler (the AT version was crap)).

Anyway, I just wanted to start another discussion, since until something new and definitive comes out, the horse has been beaten to a pulp speculating about M2 specs and the MT vs. DCT nonsense.
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      11-17-2014, 11:23 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavpilot2k View Post
I think it would have made more of an impression on a track. Also, I am a much better performance driver now than I was 11 years ago, so I might notice its merits more if I were to drive it nowadays.

And I never said it was a crappy car - just in comparison to my RX-8 at the time I didn't see what the hoopla was about (but before you judge, you should have some experience with a 6MT RX-8 - it is a superb handler (the AT version was crap)).

Anyway, I just wanted to start another discussion, since until something new and definitive comes out, the horse has been beaten to a pulp speculating about M2 specs and the MT vs. DCT nonsense.
Let me put it this way. It's one of the most bulletproof BMW engines out there, parts are dirt cheap (at least compared to my E92 M3), I'm getting 22 mpg combined (17 in the E92) and can be had for $10k or under.

Never driven an RX8 before but I'm assuming you have to wind it out right? In daily driving situations, for an NA engine, this thing has some really good torque (nothing like your 135i of course). I guess the reason it's so good, and not just at the track, but as an everyday car is because it does everything so well, which IMHO the RX8 cannot.

Having said that, the interior, especially the light grey ones don't age very well though. But the way these things have already bottomed out in price and have started steadily increasing makes for a pretty good ownership experience... granted mine is out of commission right now
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      11-17-2014, 11:33 AM   #11
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Quote:
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Let me put it this way. It's one of the most bulletproof BMW engines out there, parts are dirt cheap (at least compared to my E92 M3), I'm getting 22 mpg combined (17 in the E92) and can be had for $10k or under.

Never driven an RX8 before but I'm assuming you have to wind it out right? In daily driving situations, for an NA engine, this thing has some really good torque (nothing like your 135i of course). I guess the reason it's so good, and not just at the track, but as an everyday car is because it does everything so well, which IMHO the RX8 cannot.

Having said that, the interior, especially the light grey ones don't age very well though. But the way these things have already bottomed out in price and have started steadily increasing makes for a pretty good ownership experience... granted mine is out of commission right now
Re: RX-8. Yes, you had to wind it out. It had no torque and the power band didn't really kick in until 5k RPM, but it went hard all the way to 9K. Rotary engines just like revving because they just spin faster - no pistons to have to change direction (fighting inertia and wasting energy) twice in every combustion cycle. The car was brilliant in some ways (handling, high-revving, fun to drive) and horrible in some ways (low torque, horrible MPG, couldn't start it and shut it down cold).

Re: E36: I had no idea they had gotten that inexpensive these days.
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      11-17-2014, 11:45 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavpilot2k View Post
Re: RX-8. Yes, you had to wind it out. It had no torque and the power band didn't really kick in until 5k RPM, but it went hard all the way to 9K. Rotary engines just like revving because they just spin faster - no pistons to have to change direction (fighting inertia and wasting energy) twice in every combustion cycle. The car was brilliant in some ways (handling, high-revving, fun to drive) and horrible in some ways (low torque, horrible MPG, couldn't start it and shut it down cold).

Re: E36: I had no idea they had gotten that inexpensive these days.
Yea that's what I thought more or less. Had friends with RX8's and they said it was really unreliable. Had engines changed 3 times too.

The good thing about the E36 is that it has 240 ft-lbs of torque, but weighs a whopping 500 lbs-ish less than my E92, so it's pretty zippy in everyday driving. I've never thought geez, this car definitely needs more power, unlike when I test drove the BRZ.

The prices on these are kind of all over the place. You can definitely get a higher mileage one for like $7k (these can be up to 19 year old cars by now). But my friend just sold his mint one for $16k (needed absolutely nothing, rare color combo ect...). Still, I think it's still a whole hell of a lot of car for money.
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      11-17-2014, 12:05 PM   #13
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Nice.
Oh, another detail about the RX-8, and I only bring it up to put into context my comparison 11 years ago, was that it has standard a CF driveshaft (on the 6MT, anyway) and torsen LSD. I mention that so people unfamiliar with it don't write off the RX-8 as just some inexpensive upstart ricer. It was a very respectable car, performance-wise.

So, the yardstick by which I was measuring the E36 M3 was a serious one.
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      11-17-2014, 12:17 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavpilot2k View Post
Nice.
Oh, another detail about the RX-8, and I only bring it up to put into context my comparison 11 years ago, was that it has standard a CF driveshaft (on the 6MT, anyway) and torsen LSD. I mention that so people unfamiliar with it don't write off the RX-8 as just some inexpensive upstart ricer. It was a very respectable car, performance-wise.

So, the yardstick by which I was measuring the E36 M3 was a serious one.
Oh, I never looked at it that way. As a matter of fact, when I got out of college, I was kind of set an an E46 sedan. There was a dark green RX8 parked to 328i that I was looking at at that dealership and for a split second, I definitely considered it. But I knew absolutely nothing about cars outside the BMW world so I decided play it safe.

I was actually sad that they stopped making it. I've always been a huge fan of the RX7 too (in theory, not sure I'd want to deal with rotaties haha, got enough to deal with already!).

Not that I'm a track guru or anything, but a properly setup E36 M3 will nip at the heels of an E46 M3 at the track. That's why they are still so popular today.

At the end of the day though, I'm hoping the M2 is a worthy replacement for mine.

P.S. Damn we need more spy shots again or something.
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      11-17-2014, 12:22 PM   #15
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P.S. Damn we need more spy shots again or something.
No kidding. I'm dying for more info.
On the plus side, that GT350 looks sexy as hell (a bit over-large for my taste, but beautiful and I bet it will be a truly worthy performer). Did you hear that exhaust at the end of the video? Sick!
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      11-17-2014, 12:32 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavpilot2k View Post
No kidding. I'm dying for more info.
On the plus side, that GT350 looks sexy as hell (a bit over-large for my taste, but beautiful and I bet it will be a truly worthy performer). Did you hear that exhaust at the end of the video? Sick!
Yea I did. And like I've said in many threads, I thought the rear end of that car looked butt ugly but I've completely changed my mind after I saw it in real life.

But like I said in my quick review of the Mustang, it's not for me. The car is HUGE. It seriously felt like the same size as a V10 M6 to me. I've already got a big V8 coupe (my E92), so I'm looking for something different. I would actually love a new interpretation of a Z3M, but the M2 is the closest thing to it at the moment. I'm more interested in adding something on the smaller size, that's more nimble and fun, rather than brute power like the Stringray and GT350.

The thing sounds like an absolute monster though.
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      11-17-2014, 01:17 PM   #17
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Yea I did. And like I've said in many threads, I thought the rear end of that car looked butt ugly but I've completely changed my mind after I saw it in real life.

But like I said in my quick review of the Mustang, it's not for me. The car is HUGE. It seriously felt like the same size as a V10 M6 to me. I've already got a big V8 coupe (my E92), so I'm looking for something different. I would actually love a new interpretation of a Z3M, but the M2 is the closest thing to it at the moment. I'm more interested in adding something on the smaller size, that's more nimble and fun, rather than brute power like the Stringray and GT350.

The thing sounds like an absolute monster though.
Yeah, I'm not sure I can handle the size. I think it is about the size of a 4-series, and the 435 I sat in felt huge. That's why the M2 is the only logical choice for me that I can see. I'd have to drive the GT and I would probably come away feeling like it was too big.
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      11-17-2014, 01:44 PM   #18
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Quote:
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Yeah, I'm not sure I can handle the size. I think it is about the size of a 4-series, and the 435 I sat in felt huge. That's why the M2 is the only logical choice for me that I can see. I'd have to drive the GT and I would probably come away feeling like it was too big.
It felt even bigger than a 4er to me, but that's probably right. I mean on the inside, I could kinda stretch my elbows out and still not touch the door panel. Hell just the view from the driver seat made me feel like I'm driving a boat (couldn't imagine what a Challenger would feel like). Yet somehow, the rear seats were truly worthless.

I'm not counting it out though, I think it's definitely worth checking out.
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      11-17-2014, 01:49 PM   #19
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Yet somehow, the rear seats were truly worthless.
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      11-17-2014, 01:50 PM   #20
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.
Where are you in SC, BTW?
My family is all in Lexington, right outside of Columbia.
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      11-17-2014, 04:41 PM   #21
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Where are you in SC, BTW?
My family is all in Lexington, right outside of Columbia.
I'm in Greer
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      11-17-2014, 08:08 PM   #22
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To some extent, I do agree with the OP's original sentiments of the e36M3. I had an e36 M3/4/5 for well over a decade as well. The 96+ e36 M3s are great daily drivers in that they have a lot of low end torque (relatively speaking in comparison to an Rx-8 or S2000, two cars that are constantly compared to it). However, as you mentioned, they do have relatively short power bands (redline at 6500RPM), and they also do run out of breath in the upper range. Due to this, a popular mod for these cars is the OBDI manifold from the 95 M3 that makes them breath better up top, while giving up some low-end power. Since most of your spirited driving/racing occurs in the upper range, and not the lower range, this was a good compromise. In this regard, cars like the RX-8 and S2000 could be considered way more fun due to the ability to wind it out well into the 8-9K rpm, as opposed to only 6500 in the e36 M3. All these three cars had comparable straight line speed, but the e36M3 weighs a few hundred lbs more than the Rx-8 and S2000 (and this shows in the handling dept where the RX-8/S2000 gives the e36M3 plenty of fits). The e36M3 was also considered a slight departure of the typical M cars with higher rev limits, individual throttle bodies, distinct body kits from their normal versions, etc. However, this did present it's advantages as well in that the e36M3 was relatively easy to maintain (no valve adjustments, no rod bearing issues, etc) that are present in the other "typical" M cars. The e36M3 was almost as easy/cheap to maintain as a 328i.

All in all, the e36M3 is a great car, and for the price that they can be had now, they would be great, inexpensive, and fun weekend/track cars. Just make sure all of the typical "maintenance" items have been addressed on the higher mileage ones (cooling system overhaul, power steering hoses, suspension (RTABs/LCABs/RSMs), etc).
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