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2Addicts | BMW 2-Series forum Technical Topics N55 (M235i) Engine, Transmission, Exhaust, Tuning Dyno'd my car today...something's not right

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      11-01-2014, 12:11 PM   #1
qballis
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Dyno'd my car today...something's not right

Went to get my car dyno'd today on a Mustang Dyno. Only did two pulls one in 6th gear and one in 5th. The 6th gear pull (it's an auto so this is the 1:1 ratio) is attached.

I have JB4 on map 2 (no clue what the throttle was doing...), DP, MPE, and BMS intake. Running 93 octane pump gas from Shell.

Will attach the JB4 log from this pull when I get to a computer.

Either my car has super powers or something is wayyyyyyy wrong with their machine...

Thoughts?








Last edited by qballis; 11-01-2014 at 12:37 PM..
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      11-01-2014, 12:18 PM   #2
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You want our thoughts on what?? You have not given us anything to look at!?
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      11-01-2014, 12:19 PM   #3
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      11-01-2014, 12:35 PM   #4
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Updated with images. Couldn't get them to post on mobile.
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      11-01-2014, 02:28 PM   #5
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Is it possible the dyno software is applying an adjustment to estimate power at the crank? That's the only thing I can think of.
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      11-01-2014, 02:35 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snodgrass23
Is it possible the dyno software is applying an adjustment to estimate power at the crank? That's the only thing I can think of.
No clue, there was a 2011 GTI with upgraded turbo, E85 mix, and meth just 10 min before me that I watched that hit 411hp and 407 tq.

It all just seems way too high. Even with 15% drivetrain loss that's showing I'd be at 399hp at the wheels.

AND it's a mustang dyno, which is known to read 8-12% LOWER than a dyno jet...
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      11-01-2014, 03:12 PM   #7
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If you look at the JB4 logs, you have some boost creep going on with what looks like 16-17psi peak boost. So, considering that 399 is still maybe a little high, but definitely more feasible. Do you have the FF and EWG wires for the JB4?

Quote:
AND it's a mustang dyno, which is known to read 8-12% LOWER than a dyno jet...
Things like this are something to keep and mind, but are definitely not a hard and fast rule. All dynos read a little different, it's possible the calibration on this is reading similar to, or slightly higher than, most dynojets. It's hard to tell without a run on the same dyno with stock. One thing you could have done was move the JB4 to map 0 to take it out of the equation. Those numbers would probably have shown enough light on the situation.
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      11-01-2014, 03:28 PM   #8
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JB4 has EWG and FF wires, as well as the latest EWG firmware with F series map switching.

Map 0 would have been a good idea had I thought about it at the time.

The second pull was done in 5th gear and resulted in 471hp and 466tq.
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      11-01-2014, 05:02 PM   #9
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Take it to the track and trap speeds will tell all!
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      11-01-2014, 06:32 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snodgrass23 View Post
If you look at the JB4 logs, you have some boost creep going on with what looks like 16-17psi peak boost. So, considering that 399 is still maybe a little high, but definitely more feasible. Do you have the FF and EWG wires for the JB4?
That's not "boost creep." Boost creep is when the wastegate can not divert enough exhaust gas from the turbo so boost begins to climb in a he upper RPMs. The boost log looks fine.

Single dynos without a basis of comparison are meaningless. At least if it was on a Dynojet, you'd have something to compare to but even then it's still not too valuable. Looks like the shop is trying to estimate crank HP, so therefor stay away. Any shop that deals with crank horsepower estimates from a dyno is a joke.
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      11-01-2014, 07:31 PM   #11
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There is no way you will have broken 400 hp, or even come close, with those mods.

Sorry but you should really go back and ask for your money back, the dyno is obviously wrong. I and someone else on this forum with exact mods as you ran between 350-370whp.

Also, you are only pushing 14.5 psi with Map 2. Another user on this forum ran E30 with Map 7 (17psi) and that was only good enough for 415whp.
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      11-01-2014, 09:33 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FC4 View Post
That's not "boost creep." Boost creep is when the wastegate can not divert enough exhaust gas from the turbo so boost begins to climb in a he upper RPMs. The boost log looks fine.
I'm well aware of how boost creep happens. This is essentially the same thing. Notice when his target boost levels off at the desired level, the actual boost reading continues a couple more PSI higher, I'm assuming this is because the wastegate isn't able to keep up. Terry has mentioned that without the EWG wires the JB4 would have trouble controlling boost levels on map 2, hence my question of if he has the wires. If you'd prefer to call it a boost overshoot or something instead of creep since it's not happening at higher RPM's, thats fine too.
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      11-01-2014, 09:34 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alz0rz View Post
Also, you are only pushing 14.5 psi with Map 2. Another user on this forum ran E30 with Map 7 (17psi) and that was only good enough for 415whp.
Again, look at his logs. He hits 17 actual psi even though he's on map 2.
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      11-01-2014, 10:53 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snodgrass23 View Post
I'm well aware of how boost creep happens. This is essentially the same thing. Notice when his target boost levels off at the desired level, the actual boost reading continues a couple more PSI higher, I'm assuming this is because the wastegate isn't able to keep up. Terry has mentioned that without the EWG wires the JB4 would have trouble controlling boost levels on map 2, hence my question of if he has the wires. If you'd prefer to call it a boost overshoot or something instead of creep since it's not happening at higher RPM's, thats fine too.

Net the same thing at all. Overshoot or spike is something most manufacturers program into turbo cars to make the mid range meatier. His log shows barely any overshoot and no creep at all, in fact is drops boost several psi as the rpms increase.

Notice how the boost target curve is very close to the actual boost curve throughout the rev range.
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      11-02-2014, 08:05 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vteckiller2000 View Post
Net the same thing at all. Overshoot or spike is something most manufacturers program into turbo cars to make the mid range meatier.
How is this relevant when he's running a JB4 which is controlling the boost? That comment only works if he was running stock and wondered why his peak boost on a gauge registered a higher peak than the "advertised" peak psi of the engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vteckiller2000 View Post
in fact is drops boost several psi as the rpms increase.
Of course it does, the JB4 is purposely lowering the target boost. I know the term "creep" is generally used to refer to higher RPM uncontrolled boost rise, I'm super sorry I used it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vteckiller2000 View Post
Notice how the boost target curve is very close to the actual boost curve throughout the rev range.
Am I seeing the same logs as everyone else? I see his boost running 2-3psi higher than target through large portions of the log.


I apologize that my use of the term "creep" has bothered some people so much. The fact is that the boost isn't being controlled very well, however you want to label it, unless there is some reason his logged boost level is not accurate to the y axis labels. On all of my personal logs, the target and actual boost lines are right on top of each other at their peak levels.

I'm glad more people are eager to jump on me for my turbo syntax than actually trying to help the guy out. I hope it makes them feel like they're smarter than everyone else. I assure you I have a full understanding for how this stuff works. I was building and tuning turbo motors with full stand alone ECU's 15 years ago.
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      11-02-2014, 03:06 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snodgrass23 View Post
How is this relevant when he's running a JB4 which is controlling the boost? That comment only works if he was running stock and wondered why his peak boost on a gauge registered a higher peak than the "advertised" peak psi of the engine.
Because even stock the actual will never exactly match the target. If it did, it's tuned wrong.


Quote:
Of course it does, the JB4 is purposely lowering the target boost. I know the term "creep" is generally used to refer to higher RPM uncontrolled boost rise, I'm super sorry I used it.
There ya go. He has overshoot, but it looks completely normal.

Quote:
Am I seeing the same logs as everyone else? I see his boost running 2-3psi higher than target through large portions of the log.
Yep. Normal.


I've been building cars with standalone EMS and turbos for about 15 years as well. Including but not limited to Miatas, Mustangs, Corvettes, SRT4's and so on. Many of them with awful tendencies to creep and generally not control boost well even with electronic boost control used (Haltech, Magasquirt, HPtuners, etc). What is going on here is normal and the boost is controlled well. I guarantee JB works a little overshoot into his programming and is aware it is there.
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      11-02-2014, 04:53 PM   #17
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so taking the pissing matches out of the picture. how is the car running? whats your butt dyno telling you?

are you thinking of taking it somewhere else? i would hate to see something break due to the amount of power.
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      11-02-2014, 05:01 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLK235iNJ
so taking the pissing matches out of the picture. how is the car running? whats your butt dyno telling you?

are you thinking of taking it somewhere else? i would hate to see something break due to the amount of power.
Car is quick. Tires don't hold in first or second at all, but other F22 owners have the same issue after JB4 and DP. The thing is though that I have the SAME EXACT mods that other users on here have and they're getting 350ish readings on dynos. Temperature, dyno brand, and altitude aside, there is no way I'm in reality hitting anywhere near 450, even at the crank.

The only other dyno around me is Titan Motorsports and they won't respond to emails. Trap speeds would tell I guess.
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      11-02-2014, 06:29 PM   #19
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This is the problem when people don't use dynos for their actual purpose.

A dyno is just a substitute for a perfectly smooth, straight, legal, safe stretch of paved surface where you can take a car from low RPM to redline in a given gear. The fact that putting the drive wheels on rollers is the only way to replicate that, thus allowing you to measure how much force is applied to the rollers to spin them and spitting out numbers is just an ancillary benefit. The numbers on their own mean nothing unless you're directly comparing changes.

This is also the reason why "dyno days" at shops which allow you to simply put the car on the dyno for a couple pulls draws only a certain demographic...
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      11-02-2014, 07:49 PM   #20
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I had a 2k3 Mustang cobra that on a mustang dyno it put down 502rwhp and 493tq 13lbs of boost. It was a 10second car. My car tapped out because of fuel limitations. With those numbers I'm thinking the stock cooling and fuel system may not be sufficient. Were you running on the leaner side?

IMO I dont think this engine is built to handle that type of power so to play it safe you may want to hound that other shop.




Quote:
Originally Posted by qballis View Post
Car is quick. Tires don't hold in first or second at all, but other F22 owners have the same issue after JB4 and DP. The thing is though that I have the SAME EXACT mods that other users on here have and they're getting 350ish readings on dynos. Temperature, dyno brand, and altitude aside, there is no way I'm in reality hitting anywhere near 450, even at the crank.

The only other dyno around me is Titan Motorsports and they won't respond to emails. Trap speeds would tell I guess.
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      11-09-2014, 11:38 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BimmerEngineer View Post
Totally. This N55 engine is still the same one from the 2011-2014 135.... N55 is only safe to about 375 RWHP. Things will start breaking after that. Honestly, if you want to modd, buy a real M car or BMW 550/650... These cars engines can handle an extra 100-140 RWHP.
You really need to do everyone a favor and stop posting. You genuinely have no idea what you're talking about.
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      11-09-2014, 11:48 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FC4 View Post
You really need to do everyone a favor and stop posting. You genuinely have no idea what you're talking about.
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