M Vehicle Expectations and General Stick-Shift Questions

[bensaawn]

Hi friends,

I need some insight from this experienced community. I have a few (possibly stupid and I apologize in advance) questions about your manual driving habits with high powered M engines.

Some history: My only BMW and Manual driving experience comes from a 2011 328xi that I've driven for over 60,000km in the last 3 years. I've self-taught myself how to drive manual through extensive internet research and have had a few sessions with 2 friends who have had past experiences with driving manual cars.

I will be taking delivery of an F80 this month, and while I am prepared for a big boost in power, I actually have no clue what to expect from an M and would like some input on any stark differences and/or surprises that I may encounter (thus helping me avoid damaging the car in any way).

I also have a few general stick-shift questions.

My general stick-shift questions are:
1) What is considered "gas-efficient" rpms to be shifting at? (I have been shifting at 3000rpm all the time when I want to drive conservatively and keeping the RPMs between 2000-3000) Is this good?

2) There is a redline RPM to tell drivers that there is an upperbound limit for the engine, but is there a low limit? Like bogging down the engine around 1500rpms...is that a okay thing to do just to stay gas efficient when coasting? is it okay to apply a lot of throttle when rps are that low?

3) For drivers who like to drive their cars aggressively off a start: Without launching the car by dumping the clutch, do you just get it into 1st gear the same way as any other standing start, and then floor it once everything is engaged? or do you burn a little bit of clutch just to engage everything quicker?

4) Heel and toe: yay or nay and is it necessary in everyday driving? Will this technique wear stuff faster?

5) Engine Braking: Is it good to keep it in 6th as you decelerate from 100 to 0? I can feel the engine slowing down the wheels...but is that a good thing?


My M Car Questions:
1) Is the clutch shorter than what I would be used to in a 328xi?

2) What do you set your M1 and M2 buttons to?

3) Any winter tire suggestions? Do you have separate rims for them? If so, crappy steelies or?

4) Any general tips on driving RWD?


I'm so sorry if these are elementary questions, but if anyone can help me with some answers, it would be greatly appreciated. Feel free to throw in any additional facts or tips if need be.

Thanks.

[IMrMark]

My answers are going to suck because I just woke up. I accept all public lashing as result:

1,2,4: You can short shift the car at low rpms and it will behave just fine. Judgment is standard in terms of going too far and stalling out, which I never had an issue with. As in, you're not going to be at a stoplight and roll off in 6th gear. On top of that, the onboard computer will constantly tell you to keep shifting into the next gear, even at low speeds. So I wouldn't worry about having an exact knowledge of what's the ideal place to be going in. That's part of the fun anyway. Oh, heel toe is good to learn, but unnecessary unless you're in sport+ as the car Rev matches. So you'll be able to pick it up and learn without needing it right away.

3 - I hate burning the clutch. It'll probably happen though at somepoint. If you want to experiment with launching by dumping clutch, do somewhere with no public traffic and with plenty of room to fail.

5 - engine braking is fantastic. Saves on the brakes! Common sense as usual though, you won't dump from 6th to 2nd at highway speeds just to try to slow down...
If you do, be sure to post the video

///m

1) no idea, but it's fantastic compared to my WRX
2) m1- nannies+comfort yes
M2- nannies+comfort no
3) blizzaks and definitely cheap 18s for wheels
4) have fun? don't be afraid about your technique, just don't be stupid on public roads that's all. Ultimately, you've been driving stick, the concepts are the same. You just need to get comfortable.

[dhoggm3]

General 5) Yes. Only reason to downshift is to prepare for the next corner.

M Car 4) Learn to countersteer. The tail will want to step out on you and you should know how to say "Down boy!"

[bensaawn]

Originally Posted by IMrMark

My answers are going to suck because I just woke up. I accept all public lashing as result:

1,2,4: You can short shift the car at low rpms and it will behave just fine. Judgment is standard in terms of going too far and stalling out, which I never had an issue with. As in, you're not going to be at a stoplight and roll off in 6th gear. On top of that, the onboard computer will constantly tell you to keep shifting into the next gear, even at low speeds. So I wouldn't worry about having an exact knowledge of what's the ideal place to be going in. That's part of the fun anyway. Oh, heel toe is good to learn, but unnecessary unless you're in sport+ as the car Rev matches. So you'll be able to pick it up and learn without needing it right away.

3 - I hate burning the clutch. It'll probably happen though at somepoint. If you want to experiment with launching by dumping clutch, do somewhere with no public traffic and with plenty of room to fail.

5 - engine braking is fantastic. Saves on the brakes! Common sense as usual though, you won't dump from 6th to 2nd at highway speeds just to try to slow down...
If you do, be sure to post the video

///m

1) no idea, but it's fantastic compared to my WRX
2) m1- nannies+comfort yes
M2- nannies+comfort no
3) blizzaks and definitely cheap 18s for wheels
4) have fun? don't be afraid about your technique, just don't be stupid on public roads that's all. Ultimately, you've been driving stick, the concepts are the same. You just need to get comfortable.

Thank you for this!

BTW - nannies = ?

[bensaawn]

Originally Posted by dhoggm3

General 5) Yes. Only reason to downshift is to prepare for the next corner.

M Car 4) Learn to countersteer. The tail will want to step out on you and you should know how to say "Down boy!"

Thanks bud. I've practiced countersteering when it snows here. Just hope it doesnt happen in dry conditions but I'm sure it will when the throttle is floored on a turn.

[IMrMark]

Originally Posted by bensaawn

Thank you for this!

BTW - nannies = ?

traction control

[613Bimmer]

Originally Posted by bensaawn

Thank you for this!

BTW - nannies = ?

"Nannies" from what I can tell means Driver Aids.

[BK]

On the engine braking issue, the common wisdom is use the brakes to slow down, not the engine. YMMV, but I disregard the common wisdom and engine brake like crazy. My E90 330i has 8 years and 105K miles on it and the original clutch is still fine and the original brakes still report they'll last another 30K miles. I've daily driven various MT cars for 27 years now (God, that math is depressing) and have never burned through a clutch on any of them. I should add I rev-match downshifts out of force of habit, so I'm sure that saves wear on my clutch. But the F8x has auto-rev matching, so you won't need to do that. As for myself, I'm looking forward to trying auto-rev matching. I think it will be hard to get un-used to blipping the throttle, but it sounds like a cool feature.

[Hoopumpers]

All very pleasant responses to the OP's questions thus far. Let me answer a question with a question...

This is a ///M car we're talking about, right?

"Engine braking to save brake pads, optimal gas mileage RPMs, auto blip throttle so no heel toe required, hoping the car doesn't slide" (why, don't want to wear out tires either?)

This car was built to be driven hard. So enjoy it! Brake pads are consumables. Replace them.

My answers:
For city driving, do whatever you like. For enthusiastic driving, learn to brake very hard (with the brakes not the engine helping). Learn to perfect heel-n-toe and disable the silly auto-blip

Most importantly, go to your local BMWCCA (or any other) HPDE events

Have fun

[myzmak]

Originally Posted by BK

On the engine braking issue, the common wisdom is use the brakes to slow down, not the engine. YMMV, but I disregard the common wisdom and engine brake like crazy. My E90 330i has 8 years and 105K miles on it and the original clutch is still fine and the original brakes still report they'll last another 30K miles. I've daily driven various MT cars for 27 years now (God, that math is depressing) and have never burned through a clutch on any of them. I should add I rev-match downshifts out of force of habit, so I'm sure that saves wear on my clutch. But the F8x has auto-rev matching, so you won't need to do that. As for myself, I'm looking forward to trying auto-rev matching. I think it will be hard to get un-used to blipping the throttle, but it sounds like a cool feature.

+1

My view is that living in a place with the potential for snow and ice in the winter (like the OP) engine braking is a must. It is a much more effective and safe/controlled way to slow down the car and avoid the potential for any kind of skidding on the ice. I've done this for over 20 years of driving manuals and never had issues with clutch wear or drivetrain problems. (if done in a smooth/controlled manner, it is certainly less of a jolt than even a well performed heel-toe shift IMO)

Further, from a 'traffic management' point of view, taking your foot off the gas and, if necessary, making a downshift is a better way to handle traffic slowing in front of you than hitting your brake. Any number of studies will show you that a lot of traffic jams are really just an extended echo effect of some guy touching his brakes to slow down, which causes the guy behind him to do likewise and so on and so on down the chain to until traffic nearly or does stop. Keeping your distance and controlling your speed with the gearing/throttle is more efficient for travel. (not that this is a major priority, but people who are all 'gas then brake then gas then brake' drive are a serious pet peeve of mine....and a few other folks' as well).

[bensaawn]

Originally Posted by IMrMark

traction control

ahhh thanks. learned some new lingo haha

[bensaawn]

Originally Posted by BK

On the engine braking issue, the common wisdom is use the brakes to slow down, not the engine. YMMV, but I disregard the common wisdom and engine brake like crazy. My E90 330i has 8 years and 105K miles on it and the original clutch is still fine and the original brakes still report they'll last another 30K miles. I've daily driven various MT cars for 27 years now (God, that math is depressing) and have never burned through a clutch on any of them. I should add I rev-match downshifts out of force of habit, so I'm sure that saves wear on my clutch. But the F8x has auto-rev matching, so you won't need to do that. As for myself, I'm looking forward to trying auto-rev matching. I think it will be hard to get un-used to blipping the throttle, but it sounds like a cool feature.

Wow thats a lot of mileage on those clutches and brakes. That would be considered on the high range right? What would be an average clutch mileage for an M car when driving relatively conservative?

Also for the autorev, do you know if the car keeps the throttle at that rev matching rpm or do they blip it?

Thanks again!

[bensaawn]

Originally Posted by Hoopumpers

All very pleasant responses to the OP's questions thus far. Let me answer a question with a question...

This is a ///M car we're talking about, right?

"Engine braking to save brake pads, optimal gas mileage RPMs, auto blip throttle so no heel toe required, hoping the car doesn't slide" (why, don't want to wear out tires either?)

This car was built to be driven hard. So enjoy it! Brake pads are consumables. Replace them.

My answers:
For city driving, do whatever you like. For enthusiastic driving, learn to brake very hard (with the brakes not the engine helping). Learn to perfect heel-n-toe and disable the silly auto-blip

Most importantly, go to your local BMWCCA (or any other) HPDE events

Have fun

Yup! asking about driving the new 2015 F80.

I normally just drive what feels comfortable, minimizing gear shifts (to save clutch) and minimizing slippage when driving. I enjoy driving my car conservatively with the odd time of blowing some steam when a fella tails me. I just wanted to gauge whether my current driving habits are considered normal or out of character. I rarely have anybody else who is experienced with manual sit in my car as I drive to provide feedback, but to your point, those events should really help me out! (didnt know they existed until now). The only problem is, im in canada, so the BMWCCA wouldnt apply. I guess I could google some places north of the border.

Thanks for the response

[bensaawn]

Originally Posted by myzmak

+1

My view is that living in a place with the potential for snow and ice in the winter (like the OP) engine braking is a must. It is a much more effective and safe/controlled way to slow down the car and avoid the potential for any kind of skidding on the ice. I've done this for over 20 years of driving manuals and never had issues with clutch wear or drivetrain problems. (if done in a smooth/controlled manner, it is certainly less of a jolt than even a well performed heel-toe shift IMO)

Further, from a 'traffic management' point of view, taking your foot off the gas and, if necessary, making a downshift is a better way to handle traffic slowing in front of you than hitting your brake. Any number of studies will show you that a lot of traffic jams are really just an extended echo effect of some guy touching his brakes to slow down, which causes the guy behind him to do likewise and so on and so on down the chain to until traffic nearly or does stop. Keeping your distance and controlling your speed with the gearing/throttle is more efficient for travel. (not that this is a major priority, but people who are all 'gas then brake then gas then brake' drive are a serious pet peeve of mine....and a few other folks' as well).

Just to clarify for my knowledge: Engine braking = off throttle and coasting with the engine still engaged to the transmission until last minute disengage of clutch to avoid stall?

Haha I agree with you on that one about traffic management. I try my best to never brake. That is why I wanted to know that engine braking is okay and that I am doing it correctly (off throttle while tranny is still engaged).

Thanks!

[myzmak]

Originally Posted by bensaawn

Just to clarify for my knowledge: Engine braking = off throttle and coasting with the engine still engaged to the transmission until last minute disengage of clutch to avoid stall?

Yup. And, at times, a downshift of a gear (which can make the braking happen faster)

[DadzM4]

The way you drive now is 100% suitable for the M. The M will make you want to drive it harder then you currently drive and the higher the RPM's the more spooled up the Turbo's are so you are in the power more often than not.

As far as engine breaking, the technical and correct answer (IMO) would be to use the brakes and not the engine since brakes are consumable and cheaper to replace, it is claimed that engine braking and downshifting is harder on the clutch and car. NOW, that certainly isn't the way I drive and I am sure most 'enthusiasts' heel/toe, engine brake, etc as it is more fun, keeps the car in better control and in the power all the time but I believe the reality is it isn't as good for your car as juts using the brakes as they were designed and not downshifting to slow down. But that is just not the fun way of driving any manual car much less an M machine and it seems to prefer to be driven the hard way as well and was designed for a 'harder' driving experience then say a Camry or something. It is a performance car.

[dhoggm3]

Originally Posted by bensaawn

Thanks bud. I've practiced countersteering when it snows here. Just hope it doesnt happen in dry conditions but I'm sure it will when the throttle is floored on a turn.

Yup. This puppy will break loose in 4th if you push it hard enough. Be ready to have fast hands. I consider that a good thing, BTW. It's just a lot different from most AWD setups.

Yesterday I finally got to floor it (yay!). I was in 2nd at roughly 3K rpm when I hammered it and bam! The rear got way loose (all nannies off). I could definitely get used to this.

[bensaawn]

Originally Posted by DadzM4

The way you drive now is 100% suitable for the M. The M will make you want to drive it harder then you currently drive and the higher the RPM's the more spooled up the Turbo's are so you are in the power more often than not.

As far as engine breaking, the technical and correct answer (IMO) would be to use the brakes and not the engine since brakes are consumable and cheaper to replace, it is claimed that engine braking and downshifting is harder on the clutch and car. NOW, that certainly isn't the way I drive and I am sure most 'enthusiasts' heel/toe, engine brake, etc as it is more fun, keeps the car in better control and in the power all the time but I believe the reality is it isn't as good for your car as juts using the brakes as they were designed and not downshifting to slow down. But that is just not the fun way of driving any manual car much less an M machine and it seems to prefer to be driven the hard way as well and was designed for a 'harder' driving experience then say a Camry or something. It is a performance car.

Perfect answer. Thanks for the insight! Now all I need to do is be patient during the break in period -_-

[bensaawn]

Originally Posted by dhoggm3

Yup. This puppy will break loose in 4th if you push it hard enough. Be ready to have fast hands. I consider that a good thing, BTW. It's just a lot different from most AWD setups.

Yesterday I finally got to floor it (yay!). I was in 2nd at roughly 3K rpm when I hammered it and bam! The rear got way loose (all nannies off). I could definitely get used to this.

I'm jelly :3

I guess Im expected to be getting new tires every year haha

[BK]

Originally Posted by bensaawn

Wow thats a lot of mileage on those clutches and brakes. That would be considered on the high range right? What would be an average clutch mileage for an M car when driving relatively conservative?

Also for the autorev, do you know if the car keeps the throttle at that rev matching rpm or do they blip it?

Thanks again!

Sorry for the delayed reply. The mileage on my clutch isn't really unusual. But to still be on my original brakes is a little bizarre. I think at some point, it became a game for me to see how long I could make them last, so I'm not saying you should drive like me. My point is that I clearly engine brake a ton and yet have no ill effects on the clutch. Just rev match and don't ride the clutch and it will last a good long time. With technology like hill hold and auto rev matching, it should be easy to make a clutch last a long time.

Auto rev matching matches the appropriate revs for whatever gear you engage, it doesn't just blip the throttle and let RPMs drop to whatever. I've never tried it, but that has to be how it works because that's the only thing that would make sense. On my car, if I set cruise control in 4th gear and push in the clutch, the car holds RPMs (while the clutch is in) at the appropriate 5th gear RPM for my current speed -- the car assumes I'm going to upshift one gear. Then if I shift to 5th and do it again, it would hold RPMs in anticipation of 6th. The M3 (and Porsches and 370Zs etc.) have a much more sophisticated system that works all the time, not just for cruise control. It reads the gear you are actually going to and revs the engine appropriately right before you let out the clutch, in effect holding RPMs right where they should be for whichever gear you're going to, up or down, skipping gears, whatever. In theory, this system should make it easy for even a complete novice to shift smoothly, even while braking hard. But it also has got to slightly slow down clutch engagement. In any case, I have no idea how well it works, but it sounds interesting and I look forward to trying it.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by BK

Sorry for the delayed reply. The mileage on my clutch isn't really unusual. But to still be on my original brakes is a little bizarre. I think at some point, it became a game for me to see how long I could make them last, so I'm not saying you should drive like me. My point is that I clearly engine brake a ton and yet have no ill effects on the clutch. Just rev match and don't ride the clutch and it will last a good long time. With technology like hill hold and auto rev matching, it should be easy to make a clutch last a long time.

Auto rev matching matches the appropriate revs for whatever gear you engage, it doesn't just blip the throttle and let RPMs drop to whatever. I've never tried it, but that has to be how it works because that's the only thing that would make sense. On my car, if I set cruise control in 4th gear and push in the clutch, the car holds RPMs (while the clutch is in) at the appropriate 5th gear RPM for my current speed -- the car assumes I'm going to upshift one gear. Then if I shift to 5th and do it again, it would hold RPMs in anticipation of 6th. The M3 (and Porsches and 370Zs etc.) have a much more sophisticated system that works all the time, not just for cruise control. It reads the gear you are actually going to and revs the engine appropriately right before you let out the clutch, in effect holding RPMs right where they should be for whichever gear you're going to, up or down, skipping gears, whatever. In theory, this system should make it easy for even a complete novice to shift smoothly, even while braking hard. But it also has got to slightly slow down clutch engagement. In any case, I have no idea how well it works, but it sounds interesting and I look forward to trying it.

It has rev matching on downshifts. It will not rev match on upshifts. It is not a panacea to help you drive better. They way you described is not how the system works on upshifts....it does not "hold revs" for you to make a perfect upshift.

Caveat, if it works the same way as the 6MT M5 I drove.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by DadzM4

NOW, that certainly isn't the way I drive and I am sure most 'enthusiasts' heel/toe, engine brake, etc as it is more fun, keeps the car in better control and in the power all the time but I believe the reality is it isn't as good for your car as juts using the brakes as they were designed and not downshifting to slow down.

You're all over the place with this statement.

Heel / toe is not designed to "engine brake" as you say. Heel / toe or rev matching on downshifts, is designed to prevent drivetrain shock upsetting the attitude of the car while under braking load. It allows you to be in the appropriate gear that you need to exit the turn you are braking for.

It has nothing to do with keeping the car "in the power all the time". You are not downshifting to slow down.

Unless you need to engine brake to save the brakes (i.e. long downhill), the reason to heel / toe or rev match is to keep the car driving forward smoothly. Not to add engine braking.