[martieg]

First off - I have no experience whatsoever in tuning, having a car tuned, Dinan, Procede, etc. All my knowledge is from reading this forum. But my question to which an answer would be appreciated:

If my perception is correct - the performance Dinan offers is just a software upgrade that recallibrates a whole bunch of parameters to allow the car to perform way better. No hardware (except the oil cooler) - right?

So, why isn't BMW offering this? I mean, who's Dinan to come and improve on what the geniuses at BMW with fat R&D budgets and the know-how? And if the BMW hardware supports these new parameters, why not selling the 335i with this? Or is Dinan pushing the limits of the hardware, or any trade-offs we must be aware of?

[MSimeon]

my guess is that BMW doesn't want to do anything that will make a 335i outgun their brand new M3.

[Archibald Donnington]

Originally Posted by MSimeon

my guess is that BMW doesn't want to do anything that will make a 335i outgun their brand new M3.

+1
aaron

[LACA335i]

Originally Posted by MSimeon

my guess is that BMW doesn't want to do anything that will make a 335i outgun their brand new M3.

i do strongly believe that this coming 08 years will be hardcore mod.. Thing will come out. ie. Turbo upgrades, cameshaft. more CF stuffs to make this car weight less. so far, we already hitted high 11's on 1/4 miles. 08 will pass the m3 e92 car ...it will be faster than the e92 m3.

[m_bazeepaymon]

For sure I agree that BMW doesnt want to outtune the E92 M3.

They knew this was probably going to happen also, that is why they hope that M purist purchase the car because they only want Naturally Aspirated Engineering.

[ween0t]

Originally Posted by LACA335i

i do strongly believe that this coming 08 years will be hardcore mod.. Thing will come out. ie. Turbo upgrades, cameshaft. more CF stuffs to make this car weight less. so far, we already hitted high 11's on 1/4 miles. 08 will pass the m3 e92 car ...it will be faster than the e92 m3.

up until someone turbos or supercharges an m3.

[LACA335i]

Originally Posted by ween0t

up until someone turbos or supercharges an m3.

upgrade turbo on m3? i dont know about that.. i dont know if the new m3 have room for the turbo upgrade. ANyways turbo upgrade about 15K installed and parts

[martieg]

What are the trade-offs when tuning a car for more performance?

I think the pluses have been discussed here - more HP, more torque, ... it's really the subjective benefit of knowing that the performs better than stock.

What are the minuses, besides the extra investment? Is every day drivelability affected? Comfort? Life span? Maintenance cost? I mean, something has to give up, right?

[purplewidow]

Originally Posted by lecatrache

First off - I have no experience whatsoever in tuning, having a car tuned, Dinan, Procede, etc. All my knowledge is from reading this forum. But my question to which an answer would be appreciated:

If my perception is correct - the performance Dinan offers is just a software upgrade that recallibrates a whole bunch of parameters to allow the car to perform way better. No hardware (except the oil cooler) - right?

So, why isn't BMW offering this? I mean, who's Dinan to come and improve on what the geniuses at BMW with fat R&D budgets and the know-how? And if the BMW hardware supports these new parameters, why not selling the 335i with this? Or is Dinan pushing the limits of the hardware, or any trade-offs we must be aware of?

dinan has added turbo's to 750's 850's and other beamers as well they have a huge amount of experience in tuning....why doesn't amg do it with there expertise? you have to understand the tuner market...dinan stresses parts and comes out with replacement parts in the engine of even the m5 and m6...something have to get cut for cost esp with regard to manufacturing...dinan does many things other tuners don't for the general public...even in the last roundel they said dinan vehicles are worth more than non dinanbmw's claiming dinan,alpina, ac schnitzer and hartge as others...dinan is the only american tuner or tuner that has a relationship with bmw of na and the crap that happened 2 years ago and the fight they went through with bmw offering other performance products faded and dinan didn't back out or they would be out of business... they tried but bmw called there bluff and now we have the bmw performance line and dinan...the performance line for the 335 is due in march according to bmwna.

Steve Dinan isn't an idiot and tests components himself and tracks cars with every component before it is released...that is how they get a lot of there data , ON THE TRACK!!!!! there is so much useless dinan bashing on here it is crazy and as someone who has a dinan 5 granted she is a 95 last of the e34 body style she is running great and i have around 400 hp in her. at 132 k on the odo i show no cylinder wear or any problems related to software tuning or other components..when i had a shock fail prematurely dinan covered it without question even after the car was out of warranty but my dinan part warranty was still intact...i got caught up for a month or so and thought dinan lost it...then i did some reading in roundel and bimmer and they say the opposite of many people on here...THEY LOVE DINAN and damn if you look at the 80k they put into a z8 you will see they don't just buy some koni's and throw them on with the specs from koni for the car...they track it and dinan recalibrates it himself!!!! they have many parts for the m5 m6 that no one else has come out with...dinan really knows there stuff and this tune i just got reafirmed my confidence in dinan as well as all the positive articles in mags recently and the further engine stressing they are doing on the n54 to find the weak points and improve them...i don't see any other american tuners doing this do you? don't believe everything you hear on this forum and forums like it!!!! you have to fish through the bs!!! the reason why i went with dinan is reliability and they have proven to me in the past the stick by there warranty and they bust ass trying to improve parts you never thought needed improving!!! but when they do and you see the difference and what kind of effort they put in to there products you will see the light..unless your completely blind!!!! think about it bi turbo 8 series, 80k put in a z8... trust me not everything has to come from one place!!! that's why i am going for the eissenmann exhaust instead...but tuning they are on it and no fussing with wires or jerkiness...the car is much improved it is smoother and more powerful without losing anything that i can tell in terms of lag or throttle response...the tune changed everything!!! the car is an animal now and more civil to drive down low!!! how could i complain i am in love with this tune!!!

and if i hear one more thing about my walls of info i will shoot to kill!!! i rant i don't have all the time in the world to check grammar and go back over it... i give about 2 hours a day as it is to this forum give me a break i always say i will give a more technical review when i get a chance some people could care less though and want everything now now now...and that has really made me not wanna give reviews of other things in the past on this forum just way way too much bitching!!! end rantorama...lol

[hotrod2448]

Originally Posted by purplewidow

dinan has added turbo's to 750's 850's and other beamers as well they have a huge amount of experience in tuning....why doesn't amg do it with there expertise? you have to understand the tuner market...dinan stresses parts and comes out with replacement parts in the engine of even the m5 and m6...something have to get cut for cost esp with regard to manufacturing...dinan does many things other tuners don't for the general public...even in the last roundel they said dinan vehicles are worth more than non dinanbmw's claiming dinan,alpina, ac schnitzer and hartge as others...dinan is the only american tuner or tuner that has a relationship with bmw of na and the crap that happened 2 years ago and the fight they went through with bmw offering other performance products faded and dinan didn't back out or they would be out of business... they tried but bmw called there bluff and now we have the bmw performance line and dinan...the performance line for the 335 is due in march according to bmwna.

Steve Dinan isn't an idiot and tests components himself and tracks cars with every component before it is released...that is how they get a lot of there data , ON THE TRACK!!!!! there is so much useless dinan bashing on here it is crazy and as someone who has a dinan 5 granted she is a 95 last of the e34 body style she is running great and i have around 400 hp in her. at 132 k on the odo i show no cylinder wear or any problems related to software tuning or other components..when i had a shock fail prematurely dinan covered it without question even after the car was out of warranty but my dinan part warranty was still intact...i got caught up for a month or so and thought dinan lost it...then i did some reading in roundel and bimmer and they say the opposite of many people on here...THEY LOVE DINAN and damn if you look at the 80k they put into a z8 you will see they don't just buy some koni's and throw them on with the specs from koni for the car...they track it and dinan recalibrates it himself!!!! they have many parts for the m5 m6 that no one else has come out with...dinan really knows there stuff and this tune i just got reafirmed my confidence in dinan as well as all the positive articles in mags recently and the further engine stressing they are doing on the n54 to find the weak points and improve them...i don't see any other american tuners doing this do you? don't believe everything you hear on this forum and forums like it!!!! you have to fish through the bs!!! the reason why i went with dinan is reliability and they have proven to me in the past the stick by there warranty and they bust ass trying to improve parts you never thought needed improving!!! but when they do and you see the difference and what kind of effort they put in to there products you will see the light..unless your completely blind!!!! think about it bi turbo 8 series, 80k put in a z8... trust me not everything has to come from one place!!! that's why i am going for the eissenmann exhaust instead...but tuning they are on it and no fussing with wires or jerkiness...the car is much improved it is smoother and more powerful without losing anything that i can tell in terms of lag or throttle response...the tune changed everything!!! the car is an animal now and more civil to drive down low!!! how could i complain i am in love with this tune!!!

and if i hear one more thing about my walls of info i will shoot to kill!!! i rant i don't have all the time in the world to check grammar and go back over it... i give about 2 hours a day as it is to this forum give me a break i always say i will give a more technical review when i get a chance some people could care less though and want everything now now now...and that has really made me not wanna give reviews of other things in the past on this forum just way way too much bitching!!! end rantorama...lol

Holy shit dude. Lay off the caffeine before you .

Part of the reason BMW doesn't run that aggressive of a tune that Dinan is selling is things like BMW having to plan for people who refuse to run high octane gas because they look at the car as a way to get from point a to b and things like that.

Where most people who are buying the flash are enthusiasts and understand why they have to run premium fuel on it. Basically BMW has to dull it down for the general public and large safety margin and Dinan doesn't have to as much.

[martieg]

Originally Posted by purplewidow

dinan has added turbo's to 750's 850's and other beamers as well they have a huge amount of experience in tuning....why doesn't amg do it with there expertise? you have to understand the tuner market...

<< etc etc >>

end rantorama...lol

Thanks Purplewidow for the answer - it helps a lot.
My other question still unanswered (see one of my replies above) - what are the trade-offs when tuning?

[hotrod2448]

Usually not too many. Potentially worse fuel economy because you will most likely develop a heavy right foot. Most tuners say you will get better fuel economy because the engine is usually running leaner and more efficiently (not exactly the case with this car)

Power might be a bit peaky.

Engine life for a tuned motor is debatable. Some feel because it makes more power it will wear out faster. Others subscribe to because it makes more power it doesn't have to work as hard under normal conditions. So, form your own opinion there...

[martieg]

Thanks guys.

Now - a fully loaded 335i coupe will run for over $50,000 with Premium Package, Sport Package, Navi, Aero Kit, and other toys. If you add to that some performance enhancers (i.e. Dinan, oil cooler, wheels with spacers, carbon fiber elements, etc) you may be over $55K easily, even close to $60K in no time.

The M3 is speculated to start at $60K, and the basic model includes all of that and more. Yes, the basic model comes with real leather, super-sport package, navi, way-better-aero-kit, 414 HP, carbon fiber roof.

So I still don't get it - what's the point of buying an 335i and modding it, when the M3 is just around the corner?

[hotrod2448]

Originally Posted by lecatrache

Thanks guys.

Now - a fully loaded 335i coupe will run for over $50,000 with Premium Package, Sport Package, Navi, Aero Kit, and other toys. If you add to that some performance enhancers (i.e. Dinan, oil cooler, wheels with spacers, carbon fiber elements, etc) you may be over $55K easily, even close to $60K in no time.

The M3 is speculated to start at $60K, and the basic model includes all of that and more. Yes, the basic model comes with real leather, super-sport package, navi, way-better-aero-kit, 414 HP, carbon fiber roof.

So I still don't get it - what's the point of buying an 335i and modding it, when the M3 is just around the corner?

Then you shouldn't. It's been discussed before.

[martieg]

Originally Posted by hotrod2448

Then you shouldn't. It's been discussed before.

Yeah, but everybody here is doing it. Look around this forum - there are many drivers here modding engine, software, exhaust, brakes, wheels, trims, etc - what do they see that I don't? I'd better wait for a brand new M3. Thanks for your input.

[vase330]

Originally Posted by lecatrache

Yeah, but everybody here is doing it. Look around this forum - there are many drivers here modding engine, software, exhaust, brakes, wheels, trims, etc - what do they see that I don't? I'd better wait for a brand new M3. Thanks for your input.

I know, I know, but even then you are assuming everyones car that is modded is fully optioned. Not the case. A lot of peoplemod because they can't afford an M3 and this a cheap way to get one. Others will mod an F16 if they can. Just the way they are. Most its about most bang for the money. Plus 335i is a better daily driver than an M3. After all you don't have to rev like crap to get the juice. Some people like that. Lots of reasons. And yest 99% of the cases, its still more expensive to get an M3.

[kishg]

i've been doing some research on 335+mods vs m3 and i'm not convinced the numbers add up yet. of course m3 pricing hasn't been officially announced but it seems like the mods you need on a 335 (tune+oil cooler+exhaust+lsd) will bring you up to or within 5k of the new m3. of course i haven't factored in ED discount (not available for m3) or substantial discounts over MSRP on the 335 (also not available for m3 right now). i guess i need to crunch some more numbers once m3 prices come out.

[hotrod2448]

Originally Posted by lecatrache

Yeah, but everybody here is doing it. Look around this forum - there are many drivers here modding engine, software, exhaust, brakes, wheels, trims, etc - what do they see that I don't? I'd better wait for a brand new M3. Thanks for your input.

Well, yeah... you are on an enthusiast website. This is not an accurate portrayal of the 335 demographic. It just seems everyone mods these cars because not everyone who gets one is on this forum. It's just those of who are into our cars. When there are more of the new M3's out go check out their enthusiasts websites and see how many of them stay stock.

I mod my car because I enjoy working on it and enjoy making it suite my tastes better than the OEM ever could. I'd work on a Veyron if I had one. It's kind of like asking "Why do people repaint their house interior? The contractor painted everything when he built it. Why not just move in?" Bottom line is if you don't get why people do mods you shouldn't because it's just not for you.

[elucas730]

Originally Posted by lecatrache

Thanks guys.

Now - a fully loaded 335i coupe will run for over $50,000 with Premium Package, Sport Package, Navi, Aero Kit, and other toys. If you add to that some performance enhancers (i.e. Dinan, oil cooler, wheels with spacers, carbon fiber elements, etc) you may be over $55K easily, even close to $60K in no time.

The M3 is speculated to start at $60K, and the basic model includes all of that and more. Yes, the basic model comes with real leather, super-sport package, navi, way-better-aero-kit, 414 HP, carbon fiber roof.

So I still don't get it - what's the point of buying an 335i and modding it, when the M3 is just around the corner?

First off, I think you are underestimating the cost difference. A 335i coupe with sport package + premium package + cold weather package is around $46K. Yes, the M3 will have some 'extras', but I personally couldn't care less about a crummy $2000 nav system or a carbon fiber roof. To me, that's paying good money for something I don't want. An M3 coupe will start around $63K. So, we're looking at a $17,000 difference right there without even taking into account that it you can get a 335i for much less than MSRP, and it will be hard to do the same for the M3. Add a Procede for $1500, and we're at M3 performance levels for less than $48K.

Second, there is driveability to consider. I don't know about you, but my 335i will see the track for much less than 5% of its driven miles. The rest of the time, it will be taking me to and from work, on vacations, etc. I believe that the 335i will be leaps and bounds above the M3 in this capacity. The M3 is bound to have a much stiffer ride than even a 335i coupe with sports suspension. The other thing to consider is the power band. I have an RX-8 (no power under 6000 rpm) and an STi (no power unless in boost, 3000+ rpm). An M3 is similar in that its power is up high in the rev band. This is awesome and a hell of a lot of fun on the track. But on the street, it can be a drag. The 335i (which btw has more power than the M3 up to about 5000rpm) is so much more of a joy to drive around than either the STi or RX-8 simply for the fact that you don't have to redline it to get power.

[phantom330]

You can get a 335i sedan with Sport Pack for about 42-43k.........add a procede V2 and you're probably quicker than a M3. I don't see how your math adds up here.

[stressdoc]

Depending on how you buy your cars, there is a 15 - 25k gap between the 335 and M3. 335 is available with ED at discount. The M3 is not.

I am lucky, having an early 335, the LSD cost is low. My car fully loaded with performance mods (M-sport stuff, wheels/tires, LSD, Bilstein ride controls, flash or piggyback, sways, weight saving pieces) would price at about 45k. The M3 would be at least 20k more. The $ equalizer is resale, you do not get much out of mods, they are a flush.

But as to the OP's original Q, we are all waiting to see what strategy BMW takes with the flash. They have the software programs. Dinan needed BMW to allow it to do a flash, and for help writing the program. The big Q is whether BMW wants to distance itself from flashes for PR purposes. Let Dinan, Noelle, etc. take the heat for any problems. The other issue is marketing niche; I don't see any real competition with the M3, but maybe a ZHP/M-sport package will include a tune that BMW wants to keep exclusive. The real competition is with MB, Audi, Lexus, Nissan/Infinity, Honda. The M3 is not going to carry the ball effectively against the latest wave of AMGs, Fs, GT-Rs etc. in the 0-60 battles in the pages of C&D and R&T. But where BMW can shine in the auto rag comparo tests is in the $45k range, if they release a tuned ZHP package that would kill the S4/5, lesser MBs, G37s, and IS 350.

[martieg]

Originally Posted by elucas730

First off, I think you are underestimating the cost difference. A 335i coupe with sport package + premium package + cold weather package is around $46K. Yes, the M3 will have some 'extras', but I personally couldn't care less about a crummy $2000 nav system or a carbon fiber roof. To me, that's paying good money for something I don't want. An M3 coupe will start around $63K. So, we're looking at a $17,000 difference right there without even taking into account that it you can get a 335i for much less than MSRP, and it will be hard to do the same for the M3. Add a Procede for $1500, and we're at M3 performance levels for less than $48K.

Second, there is driveability to consider. I don't know about you, but my 335i will see the track for much less than 5% of its driven miles. The rest of the time, it will be taking me to and from work, on vacations, etc. I believe that the 335i will be leaps and bounds above the M3 in this capacity. The M3 is bound to have a much stiffer ride than even a 335i coupe with sports suspension. The other thing to consider is the power band. I have an RX-8 (no power under 6000 rpm) and an STi (no power unless in boost, 3000+ rpm). An M3 is similar in that its power is up high in the rev band. This is awesome and a hell of a lot of fun on the track. But on the street, it can be a drag. The 335i (which btw has more power than the M3 up to about 5000rpm) is so much more of a joy to drive around than either the STi or RX-8 simply for the fact that you don't have to redline it to get power.

I like your perspectives here - it helped me understand a lot better the trade-offs. Thanks!