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      07-09-2014, 01:08 PM   #1
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Modded E90 vs stock F80. Guess what's in the garage?

Looks like the modded e90 vs stock F80 thread went off the deep end.

I think it's a useful discussion still, can we try to keep it civil, folks?

I have owned 5 E9x M3s, a 2011 E90 DCT, a 2011.5 E93 DCT, a 2012 E92 6sp, a 2013 E92 6Spd and a 2011 E90 6sp. All have been modded, I've tried Dinan, KW V3, KW Clubsport, Eibach + Bilstein, PSS10, Ohlins, Motion Control and a few other suspension setups I'm sure I'm forgetting. I instruct with a couple of the clubs around here so have a decent idea of what I'm doing on track.

Just wanted to make some comments - hopefully we can keep this a civil conversation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by soberin View Post
Okay, I'll make it really quick. I have an E90 6MT with the following mods so you know where I'm coming from before my extended test drive yesterday in the new M4 with DCT and adjustable suspension. Highway and back roads all done in full Sport Plus mode for steering, throttle, suspension and DCT.

The good:

Great brakes. Kills my car.
Great seats. Way more supportive-really holds you well.
DCT. Instant shifts.

The bad:

Engine. Yes the torque is amazing. But the IS turbo lag no matter what anyone says. It is not instant response like the S65. The engine is the heart of the car, and this thing doesn't do it for me. No sound at all from the engine. Only the exhaust, and not very inspiring.

Suspension. Nice and flat. But it ain't no Ohlin.

Steering. Good for EPS-way better than the Cayman. BUT not as sensitive as my modded hydraulic, and without the same feedback and feel. Too much play on-center. Sorry.

DCT. Instant shifts, but really only good if you track. And I track quite a bit at LRP. DCT too robotic for daily driving without enough driver input. Don't need no stinkin' rev matching done for me.
So, I have an E90 M3 that I'm parting out. Ohlins, Vorshalg camber plates, AP racing BBK, solid subframe bushings, rogue tension arm bushings, 275/295 AD08Rs, Akrapovic Evolution, Evolve tune, etc. I instruct with a bunch of the track clubs around here.

The E90 feels slow and it doesn't stick as well as my F80. It rides way worse. It doesn't take a set as nicely and is harder to deal with.

The F80 has zero on center play. Not sure what was wrong with your car, but the ratio is faster, the turn in is better, and the car takes a set faster than the e90. The steering feel does suffer. You can't tell when the front wheels are slipping... but most of that is because the front wheels AREN'T slipping. The e90 understeers way more, even with the additional camber I run.

Sound - there is no comparison, the E90 with Akrapovic or any of the other 30 exhausts I've had, sounds miles better. The F80 is pretty decent above 4000 rpm and in boost, but it's not very entertaining from a sound perspective at idle or on startup (especially cold start - my wife thought UPS had come, that's how bad it is)

Anyway, my verdict is that the E90 is being parted out. I really like the e90 platform, but the F80 does just about everything except tickle the ears, better. It's especially better at lightening the wallet, but there aren't many people reading the F80 boards that are horribly hurting for money.
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      07-09-2014, 01:12 PM   #2
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great post
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      07-09-2014, 01:14 PM   #3
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      07-09-2014, 04:46 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kitw View Post
Looks like the modded e90 vs stock F80 thread went off the deep end.

I think it's a useful discussion still, can we try to keep it civil, folks?

I have owned 5 E9x M3s, a 2011 E90 DCT, a 2011.5 E93 DCT, a 2012 E92 6sp, a 2013 E92 6Spd and a 2011 E90 6sp. All have been modded, I've tried Dinan, KW V3, KW Clubsport, Eibach + Bilstein, PSS10, Ohlins, Motion Control and a few other suspension setups I'm sure I'm forgetting. I instruct with a couple of the clubs around here so have a decent idea of what I'm doing on track.

Just wanted to make some comments - hopefully we can keep this a civil conversation.



So, I have an E90 M3 that I'm parting out. Ohlins, Vorshalg camber plates, AP racing BBK, solid subframe bushings, rogue tension arm bushings, 275/295 AD08Rs, Akrapovic Evolution, Evolve tune, etc. I instruct with a bunch of the track clubs around here.

The E90 feels slow and it doesn't stick as well as my F80. It rides way worse. It doesn't take a set as nicely and is harder to deal with.

The F80 has zero on center play. Not sure what was wrong with your car, but the ratio is faster, the turn in is better, and the car takes a set faster than the e90. The steering feel does suffer. You can't tell when the front wheels are slipping... but most of that is because the front wheels AREN'T slipping. The e90 understeers way more, even with the additional camber I run.

Sound - there is no comparison, the E90 with Akrapovic or any of the other 30 exhausts I've had, sounds miles better. The F80 is pretty decent above 4000 rpm and in boost, but it's not very entertaining from a sound perspective at idle or on startup (especially cold start - my wife thought UPS had come, that's how bad it is)

Anyway, my verdict is that the E90 is being parted out. I really like the e90 platform, but the F80 does just about everything except tickle the ears, better. It's especially better at lightening the wallet, but there aren't many people reading the F80 boards that are horribly hurting for money.
As the OP, I must assume my post got under some people's skin. I appreciate what you have written above, but I don't think there is anything wrong with the car I drove yesterday. There was play on center with the steering in Sport Plus. This is not present on my E90 with the Servotronic mod.

The suspension in Sport Plus was not as smooth as the Ohlin R&T, and it had perceptively more body roll, although minimal of course. I have sharper turn in with my Ohlins and camber plates than the F80 in Sport Plus.

Turbo lag was evident, and not enjoyable. No modding issue here, simply a fact of life that is not corrected even with two turbos. Until BMW adds an electric motor to give instant torque while the turbos spool up, I will take the linear S65 instead.

Glad we agree on the sound. There is nothing from the F80 engine that has the mechanical beauty of the S65, and I don't care for the exhaust quality. Certainly computer generated sound through the speakers is a stupid idea left for non-enthusiasts who may buy the new M3 by mistake and won't notice.
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      07-09-2014, 04:58 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soberin View Post
As the OP, I must assume my post got under some people's skin. I appreciate what you have written above, but I don't think there is anything wrong with the car I drove yesterday. There was play on center with the steering in Sport Plus. This is not present on my E90 with the Servotronic mod.

The suspension in Sport Plus was not as smooth as the Ohlin R&T, and it had perceptively more body roll, although minimal of course. I have sharper turn in with my Ohlins and camber plates than the F80 in Sport Plus.

Turbo lag was evident, and not enjoyable. No modding issue here, simply a fact of life that is not corrected even with two turbos. Until BMW adds an electric motor to give instant torque while the turbos spool up, I will take the linear S65 instead.

Glad we agree on the sound. There is nothing from the F80 engine that has the mechanical beauty of the S65, and I don't care for the exhaust quality. Certainly computer generated sound through the speakers is a stupid idea left for non-enthusiasts who may buy the new M3 by mistake and won't notice.
Have E92, test drove M4.

Don't know what play you are talking about, I didn't feel any. I like the steering in Comfort and Sport. Sport+ was just too much.

Can't comment on suspension, I only have springs with OEM shocks. F82 cornered flatter I feel like.

Turbo lag. It's not as instantaneous as the V8, but nowhere near enough for me to say it was "evident"

Sound. I liked it. I have a fully catless setup with Eisenmann Race, so my E92 sings at all RPM including idle. The sound from the S55 was a non issue for me. Didn't really like the cold start but that's about it, I can live with that. So you are saying you can hear sound being pipped through the speakers? Because I couldn't.
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      07-09-2014, 05:21 PM   #6
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Referring to the original post that prompted this thread, it always cracks me up when a guy comes on a board (because only guys do this) and gives an opinion on how his heavily modified car is better than the newer version, pointing out how it is better in certain ways (that he had his car modified to his fix because apparently it also wasn't good enough in the first place, yet they never mention that point), and then is surprised when people think he's a tool. Everyone has opinions and is entitled to them, but presenting them as objective facts when they clearly aren't, and doing it on a board for the car in question is never going to win you any friends.
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      07-09-2014, 05:59 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TahoeM3 View Post
Referring to the original post that prompted this thread, it always cracks me up when a guy comes on a board (because only guys do this) and gives an opinion on how his heavily modified car is better than the newer version, pointing out how it is better in certain ways (that he had his car modified to his fix because apparently it also wasn't good enough in the first place, yet they never mention that point), and then is surprised when people think he's a tool. Everyone has opinions and is entitled to them, but presenting them as objective facts when they clearly aren't, and doing it on a board for the car in question is never going to win you any friends.
heh, well... that was my point - My heavily modded E90 was inferior in most ways by a large margin. Except sound and throttle response. Driving the E90 now feels downright slow and lethargic.

The on center play is interesting - that's something no one else has noted. I suspect a bad alignment... or OP ran his e90 with a stupid amount of toe out. Curious if OP has any track experience or just likes really twitchy steering.
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      07-09-2014, 06:02 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soberin View Post
Glad we agree on the sound. There is nothing from the F80 engine that has the mechanical beauty of the S65, and I don't care for the exhaust quality. Certainly computer generated sound through the speakers is a stupid idea left for non-enthusiasts who may buy the new M3 by mistake and won't notice.
So now you're implying that people who buy the F8X and like how it sounds are "non-enthusiasts". Good way to make friends around here I'm sure.

And you do realize the active sound has a purpose, right? It's not just there to make it sound better. It's there to restore some of the aural feedback which is admittedly missing from a turbo engine.

I think we can all agree that we wish things like active sound weren't necessary. But so far I can't recall anyone offering up a better idea for how to restore some of the sound that's inherently lost due to the turbos.
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      07-10-2014, 09:21 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TahoeM3 View Post
Referring to the original post that prompted this thread, it always cracks me up when a guy comes on a board (because only guys do this) and gives an opinion on how his heavily modified car is better than the newer version, pointing out how it is better in certain ways (that he had his car modified to his fix because apparently it also wasn't good enough in the first place, yet they never mention that point), and then is surprised when people think he's a tool. Everyone has opinions and is entitled to them, but presenting them as objective facts when they clearly aren't, and doing it on a board for the car in question is never going to win you any friends.
Not particularly interested in making friends, or I wouldn't be on a forum. Just giving you my experience. Remember, there is nothing wrong with modding cars, just like they Photoshop fashion models. You want to compare stock to stock; that's fine. I simply find the mods on my E90 make it handle better and steer better than a stock F80.
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      07-10-2014, 05:12 PM   #10
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kitw, any track impressions or data yet? (F8X vs E90)

Chance of a highway run between the two before you ditch the E90?
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      07-10-2014, 07:18 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W/// View Post
Have E92, test drove M4.

Don't know what play you are talking about, I didn't feel any. I like the steering in Comfort and Sport. Sport+ was just too much.

Can't comment on suspension, I only have springs with OEM shocks. F82 cornered flatter I feel like.

Turbo lag. It's not as instantaneous as the V8, but nowhere near enough for me to say it was "evident"

Sound. I liked it. I have a fully catless setup with Eisenmann Race, so my E92 sings at all RPM including idle. The sound from the S55 was a non issue for me. Didn't really like the cold start but that's about it, I can live with that. So you are saying you can hear sound being pipped through the speakers? Because I couldn't.
Its evident to me but it doesn't kill the car, just one more thing I have to take into account. The M4 is a fantastic car and is the best daily driver M3 ever made, for all out fun though I prefer the E92/E46.

PS. Keep you E92 for now
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      07-10-2014, 08:32 PM   #12
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Ive driven the E92 and just recently my buddies new f80 M3, and i must say that i didn't notice any turbo lag. And we were doing a lot of 0-60 and 20-140 pulls lol.
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      07-11-2014, 01:10 AM   #13
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what turbo lag?
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      07-13-2014, 08:32 PM   #14
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I just got back from driving the F80 m3 and I love the sound. Look for my review later but I just sold my E90 M3 (modded) and currently drive a modded S4. The new M3 is amazing on every level. I think owners of the old car are just a bit butt-hurt if you will the new one is so nice. To those people I just say we all have choices in life so do what you please but no need to write long lengthy replies.

The new is almost always better, this is how mfr. make money, do you really expect a new car to be "less" than the old one?
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      07-13-2014, 08:55 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s4play View Post
I just got back from driving the F80 m3 and I love the sound. Look for my review later but I just sold my E90 M3 (modded) and currently drive a modded S4. The new M3 is amazing on every level. I think owners of the old car are just a bit butt-hurt if you will the new one is so nice. To those people I just say we all have choices in life so do what you please but no need to write long lengthy replies.

The new is almost always better, this is how mfr. make money, do you really expect a new car to be "less" than the old one?
Man oh man, where to begin? Obviously you intimated your inane comment would draw some response with "no need to write long lengthy replies."

Your comments are just ridiculous. Yes, the general premise is that "new cars" aren't "less" (whatever that means) than the "old" ones they replace. If you mean by OBJECTIVE measures, i.e., performance metrics. However, there is more to the "feel" of a car than purely objective measurement. Hence subjectivity. The car world is replete with examples of cars that are replaced by subsequent models that are technologically more advanced, have better performance metrics, but are panned by pros and enthusiasts on subjective criteria. In the BMW family the new ///M5 is a great example of this.

I am not butt-hurt that the new ///M has better objective metrics than the model it replaces. I am excited for the brand and the people who buy them. I have reservations about the direction ///M is heading, i.e., turbos, but that is philosophical. If anything THIS is what I am "butt-hurt" about. Turbo-charging. I understand the reasons for it, but ///M has previously espoused a brand identity that eschewed this very technology.

Enjoy your new ///M. Please don't presume to assume that I am butt-hurt because your new twin turbo car is FASTER or has MOAR POWER. Congrats. If that were my sole criteria, it would be sitting in my driveway right now.
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      07-13-2014, 10:02 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rngrjag View Post
Man oh man, where to begin? Obviously you intimated your inane comment would draw some response with "no need to write long lengthy replies."

Your comments are just ridiculous. Yes, the general premise is that "new cars" aren't "less" (whatever that means) than the "old" ones they replace. If you mean by OBJECTIVE measures, i.e., performance metrics. However, there is more to the "feel" of a car than purely objective measurement. Hence subjectivity. The car world is replete with examples of cars that are replaced by subsequent models that are technologically more advanced, have better performance metrics, but are panned by pros and enthusiasts on subjective criteria. In the BMW family the new ///M5 is a great example of this.

I am not butt-hurt that the new ///M has better objective metrics than the model it replaces. I am excited for the brand and the people who buy them. I have reservations about the direction ///M is heading, i.e., turbos, but that is philosophical. If anything THIS is what I am "butt-hurt" about. Turbo-charging. I understand the reasons for it, but ///M has previously espoused a brand identity that eschewed this very technology.

Enjoy your new ///M. Please don't presume to assume that I am butt-hurt because your new twin turbo car is FASTER or has MOAR POWER. Congrats. If that were my sole criteria, it would be sitting in my driveway right now.
Yeah...you're butthurt.
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      07-13-2014, 11:12 PM   #17
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Yeah...you're butthurt.
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      07-13-2014, 11:31 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Never Convicted View Post
Yeah...you're butthurt.
Nice rebuttal, well reasoned and cogent. Well done sir!

GB Packer Fan. You are the biggest F80 advocate/apologist on this board. Interesting since you haven't taken delivery yet. Hope your DCT doesn't blow or your HPFP doesn't fail. Good luck with your first year purchase of the only ///M3 car in a decade to NOT win the engine of the year award.

Butthurt yet?
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      07-13-2014, 11:39 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rngrjag View Post
Nice rebuttal, well reasoned and cogent. Well done sir!

GB Packer Fan. You are the biggest F80 advocate/apologist on this board. Interesting since you haven't taken delivery yet. Hope your DCT doesn't blow or your HPFP doesn't fail. Good luck with your first year purchase of the only ///M3 car in a decade to NOT win the engine of the year award.

Butthurt yet?
Hmmm......it's hard to be a F80 advocate when I'm getting an F82. That's just semantics though. It might behoove you to do a little research as my F82 is a 6MT. Not worried about first year purchase. If you keep waiting for the next big thing, all you do is wait. If that's all you can come up with, then you must really be butthurt.
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      07-13-2014, 11:58 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GBPackerfan1963 View Post
Hmmm......it's hard to be a F80 advocate when I'm getting an F82. That's just semantics though. It might behoove you to do a little research as my F82 is a 6MT. Not worried about first year purchase. If you keep waiting for the next big thing, all you do is wait. If that's all you can come up with, then you must really be butthurt.
Nah, c'mon, I love you early adopters, what with your wide-eyed optimism. I prefer to wait for the bugs to be worked out and actually buy a product at the end of its production cycle, a la 997.2 and 2013 E92 ///M, when the reliability, and price, is optimal. All you early adopters comparing your new ///M to a known commodity, a legend in the automotive world, are comical. The new ///M may be the greatest thing since sliced bread and a substantial improvement on the previous model. This is prospective, however. IF it is all that and a bag of chips I will buy one. Simple. (Assuming I can get over the hideous interior.)

I have seen your posts, many of which are variations on the theme. New car is awesome, you M9X owners are delusional and clinging to old tech, etc., etc., ergo you must be butthurt. Logical fallacy. I believe my comments are well-reasoned and fair, albeit subjective. I acknowledge the empirical superiority of the new chassis and motor, while lamenting the break with previous ///M philosophy. I fail to see how that makes me butthurt. Congrats on your new ///M, enjoy it in good health.
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      07-16-2014, 08:57 PM   #21
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none of this new car is faster and better matters if you dont even access the full potential of the car which sadly, most owners won't.

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      07-16-2014, 09:19 PM   #22
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none of this new car is faster and better matters if you dont even access the full potential of the car which sadly, most owners won't.

Well, at least not like you, Speed Racer. #Pompous
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