6MT Drivers - Heel to toe really difficult with this car?

michaeldorian · 01-22-2009, 08:33 PM

Maybe it's just me, but heel to toe down-shifting seems super difficult on this car.

It seem's like the brake pedal is way too high in relations to the gas pedal, making it difficult to trail brake, heel-toe and shift. When you're braking it's hard to actually reach and push down the gas pedal with your heel.

I recently drove a friends mini-cooper and the pedal setup is perfect. The brake and pedal levels are pretty even.

Is it just me, or does everyone here experience the same thing?

endofanera7 · 01-22-2009, 08:39 PM

This topic have been discussed many times.

BRDHNTR · 01-22-2009, 08:41 PM

I put Ultimate Pedals on my M3 because I had problems w/ heel toe in certain shoes. Now they are great but on two occasions I had to slam on the brakes and when I did I could hear the engine rev up as I also hit the gas. No big deal as it was only briefly and the clutch was in as well.

michaeldorian · 01-22-2009, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by endofanera7

This topic have been discussed many times.

Thanks.

JJM335 · 01-22-2009, 09:36 PM

I think you are having the same problem I did...brake pads. The OEM's have a lot of initial bite, so you don't have to press on the brake pedal very hard at street speeds. This means it's usually too high to rip off good heel toe downshifts. The catch is that it works great at track speeds when you are mashing the brakes harder. So this is what I have done to my last 2 BMW's (335i and now the M3). First, do the clutch spring removal mod (removing the clutch delay valve was a must for the 335 but I haven't needed to in the M3). This makes the clutch uptake much smother and easier to control. Second, change out the brake pads. I use axxis deluxe on the street. They have similar performance but are much more progressive. As a bonus, they dust very little.

Good luck.

mach330 · 01-22-2009, 10:38 PM

had the same problem unti i switch to the "pivot" your feet instead of heel toe. basically i use my big toe-pinky roll. works much better with this car.

lincoln · 01-22-2009, 10:56 PM

I find irony in the fact that 6MT people posting threads about 6MT issues are left alone by DCT drivers. If a DCT driver had a question/issue related to DCT, there would inevitably be a 6MT person (multiple people) saying some asinine remark such as "I'm glad I got 6MT!

".

Is this related to IQ? Hmm, poll on IQ and models/options on our cars....

On a serious note, when I test drove the M3, I felt the same thing. But my 911 felt "off" at first also... like others have mentioned, I think you get used to it, but aftermarket pedals do help.... and did help on my 911.

JC919 · 01-22-2009, 11:01 PM

Got a size 13 foot. So heel-toe is pretty f@ckin impossible anyway.

Stunnerable · 01-22-2009, 11:20 PM

I thought this at first too.. but you have to remember it's never easy to heel toe at "normal" speeds. I use (and have always used) the roll method mentioned above. Around town this method seems easier to get the gas pedal down far enough to rev match your downshifts. On the track however.. it might be over kill.

urbo73 · 01-22-2009, 11:24 PM

+1

Heel and toe is useful when at the track or racing. On the street you aren't going fast enough or braking hard/deep enough to make it "easy". And on the street it's not necessary - just get off the brake, blip, and engage clutch (takes a fraction of a second and nobody is timing you....). I don't understand those that heel and toe on the street....

urbo73 · 01-22-2009, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lincoln

I find irony in the fact that 6MT people posting threads about 6MT issues are left alone by DCT drivers. If a DCT driver had a question/issue related to DCT, there would inevitably be a 6MT person (multiple people) saying some asinine remark such as "I'm glad I got 6MT!

".

Is this related to IQ? Hmm, poll on IQ and models/options on our cars....

On a serious note, when I test drove the M3, I felt the same thing. But my 911 felt "off" at first also... like others have mentioned, I think you get used to it, but aftermarket pedals do help.... and did help on my 911.

Maybe because the DCT issues are DCT and not technique related? I haven't seen a thread about how to best grip the + or - paddle, etc...

Purple88Gold · 01-22-2009, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lincoln

I find irony in the fact that 6MT people posting threads about 6MT issues are left alone by DCT drivers. If a DCT driver had a question/issue related to DCT, there would inevitably be a 6MT person (multiple people) saying some asinine remark such as "I'm glad I got 6MT!

".

Is this related to IQ? Hmm, poll on IQ and models/options on our cars....

Sigh

rob612 · 01-23-2009, 12:02 AM

i had a little trouble at first.. but its pretty easy. try using the side of your foot to give you the right angle.

gluck.

michaeldorian · 01-23-2009, 12:37 AM

Thanks everyone for the feedback.

Stunnerable · 01-23-2009, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbo73

+1

Heel and toe is useful when at the track or racing. On the street you aren't going fast enough or braking hard/deep enough to make it "easy". And on the street it's not necessary - just get off the brake, blip, and engage clutch (takes a fraction of a second and nobody is timing you....). I don't understand those that heel and toe on the street....

I know what you mean and just bliping the gas definitely works best on the street. However, I like to keep my skills sharp so I practice as much as possible. The only way you can do that is to brake hard coming off the highway for an on ramp... it scares the crap out of anyone in the car and possible anyone watching but it's the only way to get that brake pedal down far enough.

JC919 · 01-23-2009, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbo73

Maybe because the DCT issues are DCT and not technique related? I haven't seen a thread about how to best grip the + or - paddle, etc...

+1000

doba_s · 01-23-2009, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lincoln

I find irony in the fact that 6MT people posting threads about 6MT issues are left alone by DCT drivers. If a DCT driver had a question/issue related to DCT, there would inevitably be a 6MT person (multiple people) saying some asinine remark such as "I'm glad I got 6MT!

".

Is this related to IQ? Hmm, poll on IQ and models/options on our cars....

On a serious note, when I test drove the M3, I felt the same thing. But my 911 felt "off" at first also... like others have mentioned, I think you get used to it, but aftermarket pedals do help.... and did help on my 911.

it is so true ...

!Xoible · 01-23-2009, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JC919

Got a size 13 foot. So heel-toe is pretty f@ckin impossible anyway.

YETI

jscott · 01-23-2009, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbo73

+1
I don't understand those that heel and toe on the street....

Can you understand that most of us are not race drivers for a living? We get 3-4 track days a year. I think we should be learning/practicing heal-toe on the street when it's safe to do so. Especially considering that in a new vehicle pedal placement, break and accelerator pedal feel are factors for us. Hell what shoes you have on make a difference.

You are correct it's "not necessary" to heel-toe on the street. It's also not necessary to drive an over 400hp car to work every day but that isn't stopping us. Yay BMW!

lincoln · 01-23-2009, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jscott

You are correct it's "not necessary" to heel-toe on the street. It's also not necessary to drive an over 400hp car to work every day but that isn't stopping us. Yay BMW!

Good point, haha.

MidwestBimmerFan · 01-23-2009, 07:48 PM

I have not had this problem on street but like other peolple said it will all come together on the track when you are using a lot more brake pedal travel. On the street it is a lot easier to do in the sport plus setting for throttle. I always start to pivot with my hip and knee first to maintain constant presure on the brake pedal and then finish it off by twisting my ankle. Also make sure your using the ball of your foot on the brake pedal. Also when you are entering a corner you should always brake to slow the car down then down shift before you turn the wheel and then trail brake. You never want to trail brake and then downshift this will upset the balance of the car to much and slow you down or even worse cause you to spin.

MrHarris · 01-23-2009, 10:23 PM

I find the M3 pretty similar to heel-toe with as all other BMW's i've driven (e46, e46 m3, e90 335). The only thing that's a bit difficult to get used to is the brakes on the e92 m3 is a bit sensitive, so smooth heel-toe downshifts need some practicing.

01-22-2009, 08:33 PM	#1
michaeldorian Major 241 Rep 1,125 Posts Drives: M2 CS Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Currently North Carolina iTrader: (0)	6MT Drivers - Heel to toe really difficult with this car? Maybe it's just me, but heel to toe down-shifting seems super difficult on this car. It seem's like the brake pedal is way too high in relations to the gas pedal, making it difficult to trail brake, heel-toe and shift. When you're braking it's hard to actually reach and push down the gas pedal with your heel. I recently drove a friends mini-cooper and the pedal setup is perfect. The brake and pedal levels are pretty even. Is it just me, or does everyone here experience the same thing?
	Appreciate 0 Tweet Quote

01-22-2009, 08:39 PM	#2
endofanera7 Major General 522 Rep 5,393 Posts Drives: 08 JB E92 M3 Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bay Area, CA iTrader: (16) Garage List 2018 Porsche GT3 [9.50]	This topic have been discussed many times.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

01-22-2009, 08:41 PM	#3
BRDHNTR Ground Pilot 41 Rep 548 Posts Drives: e92 BMW M3 Join Date: May 2008 Location: Waverly, PA iTrader: (0) Garage List 2002 M3 [0.00] 2008 e92 M3 [0.00]	I put Ultimate Pedals on my M3 because I had problems w/ heel toe in certain shoes. Now they are great but on two occasions I had to slam on the brakes and when I did I could hear the engine rev up as I also hit the gas. No big deal as it was only briefly and the clutch was in as well. __________________ "The laws of physics cannot be repealed, even with DSC." - BMW Owner's Manual
	Appreciate 0 Quote

01-22-2009, 09:36 PM	#5
JJM335 Second Lieutenant 7 Rep 229 Posts Drives: 2008 E92 M3 Join Date: May 2007 Location: GA iTrader: (0) Garage List 2008 E92 M3 [0.00]	I think you are having the same problem I did...brake pads. The OEM's have a lot of initial bite, so you don't have to press on the brake pedal very hard at street speeds. This means it's usually too high to rip off good heel toe downshifts. The catch is that it works great at track speeds when you are mashing the brakes harder. So this is what I have done to my last 2 BMW's (335i and now the M3). First, do the clutch spring removal mod (removing the clutch delay valve was a must for the 335 but I haven't needed to in the M3). This makes the clutch uptake much smother and easier to control. Second, change out the brake pads. I use axxis deluxe on the street. They have similar performance but are much more progressive. As a bonus, they dust very little. Good luck.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

01-22-2009, 10:38 PM	#6
mach330 You don't know JACK!!! 43 Rep 796 Posts Drives: 2011 X5 35i Join Date: May 2005 Location: The OC iTrader: (3)	had the same problem unti i switch to the "pivot" your feet instead of heel toe. basically i use my big toe-pinky roll. works much better with this car. __________________ Rated /// M
	Appreciate 0 Quote

01-22-2009, 10:56 PM	#7
lincoln Lieutenant 19 Rep 432 Posts Drives: 2009 Melbourne Red Coupe - DCT Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Seattle (Puyallup) iTrader: (0)	I find irony in the fact that 6MT people posting threads about 6MT issues are left alone by DCT drivers. If a DCT driver had a question/issue related to DCT, there would inevitably be a 6MT person (multiple people) saying some asinine remark such as "I'm glad I got 6MT! ". Is this related to IQ? Hmm, poll on IQ and models/options on our cars.... On a serious note, when I test drove the M3, I felt the same thing. But my 911 felt "off" at first also... like others have mentioned, I think you get used to it, but aftermarket pedals do help.... and did help on my 911. __________________ 2009 Melbourne Red DCT \| Black Interior \| Carbon Fiber Trim \| Carbon Fiber Roof \| Cold Weather \| Premium \| Technology \| 19's \| Smartphone Integration \| iPod \|
	Appreciate 0 Quote

01-22-2009, 11:01 PM	#8
JC919 Lieutenant Colonel 74 Rep 1,803 Posts Drives: CSL Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Aberdeen, Scotland iTrader: (0)	Got a size 13 foot. So heel-toe is pretty f@ckin impossible anyway.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

01-22-2009, 11:20 PM	#9
Stunnerable Captain 74 Rep 757 Posts Drives: Nissan Rogue, 09 Jet Black M3 Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Horsham, PA iTrader: (0)	I thought this at first too.. but you have to remember it's never easy to heel toe at "normal" speeds. I use (and have always used) the roll method mentioned above. Around town this method seems easier to get the gas pedal down far enough to rev match your downshifts. On the track however.. it might be over kill. __________________ Straight roads are for fast cars. Curvy roads are for fast drivers.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

01-22-2009, 11:24 PM	#10
urbo73 Captain 58 Rep 754 Posts Drives: 2021 BMW M340i xDrive Join Date: May 2006 Location: USA iTrader: (0)	+1 Heel and toe is useful when at the track or racing. On the street you aren't going fast enough or braking hard/deep enough to make it "easy". And on the street it's not necessary - just get off the brake, blip, and engage clutch (takes a fraction of a second and nobody is timing you....). I don't understand those that heel and toe on the street....
	Appreciate 0 Quote

01-23-2009, 12:02 AM	#13
rob612 Second Lieutenant 13 Rep 235 Posts Drives: e92 - m3 Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: California iTrader: (1)	i had a little trouble at first.. but its pretty easy. try using the side of your foot to give you the right angle. gluck.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

01-23-2009, 12:37 AM	#14
michaeldorian Major 241 Rep 1,125 Posts Drives: M2 CS Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Currently North Carolina iTrader: (0)	Thanks everyone for the feedback.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

01-23-2009, 07:48 PM	#21
MidwestBimmerFan Private First Class 14 Rep 148 Posts Drives: E92 M3, 1995 E36 M3, 1976 2002 Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Willowbrook, IL iTrader: (0)	I have not had this problem on street but like other peolple said it will all come together on the track when you are using a lot more brake pedal travel. On the street it is a lot easier to do in the sport plus setting for throttle. I always start to pivot with my hip and knee first to maintain constant presure on the brake pedal and then finish it off by twisting my ankle. Also make sure your using the ball of your foot on the brake pedal. Also when you are entering a corner you should always brake to slow the car down then down shift before you turn the wheel and then trail brake. You never want to trail brake and then downshift this will upset the balance of the car to much and slow you down or even worse cause you to spin.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

01-23-2009, 10:23 PM	#22
MrHarris yodog 197 Rep 5,025 Posts Drives: '86 Corolla Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Diamond Bar, Ca iTrader: (5) Garage List 2009 BMW [10.00]	I find the M3 pretty similar to heel-toe with as all other BMW's i've driven (e46, e46 m3, e90 335). The only thing that's a bit difficult to get used to is the brakes on the e92 m3 is a bit sensitive, so smooth heel-toe downshifts need some practicing. __________________ 2009 E92 M3 \| Alpine White \| Black Extended \| Advan RS \| Turner Test Pipes \| Dinan Axle-Back \| OETuning \| Eibach Springs \| UUC SSK \| VRS Front Lip \| VRS Type I Diffuser \| Matte Black \| RPi Scoops \| MS Filter \| Yokohama AD08 \| F1 Pinnacle Special Thanks: Gintani \| OETuning \| eAs
	Appreciate 0 Quote