Down Pipe noob question

[Alvinized52]

Im finally looking into putting money towards performance and overall sound of my exhaust... Thinking of opting for down pipe + tune first instead of spending same or more on ridiculously expensve exhaust systems. I know theres a few threads about this but really hard to comb through to get all the right answers, plus some are old threads and looking for more current updated advise on newer systems and such. The trends seem to change so quickly... So im getting pulled into so many directions its making my head explode. That said, i have a few noob questions that would hopefully not get me killed:

- will changing my down pipe change the sound of my stock exhaust?

- Does it really matter which brand down pipe i get? I imagine they are all relatively the same...right?

- i came a cross catted and catlless down pipes. Whats the difference performance wise? And why would someone be getting a catted one any way as a mod??

- does having a down pipe and tune require to have air intake upgrades as well?? What about just having down pipes only with no tune?

Please advise. Much appreciated.

[Arcades]

Originally Posted by Alvinized52

Im finally looking into putting money towards performance and overall sound of my exhaust... Thinking of opting for down pipe + tune first instead of spending same or more on ridiculously expensve exhaust systems. I know theres a few threads about this but really hard to comb through to get all the right answers, plus some are old threads and looking for more current updated advise on newer systems and such. The trends seem to change so quickly... So im getting pulled into so many directions its making my head explode. That said, i have a few noob questions that would hopefully not get me killed:

- will changing my down pipe change the sound of my stock exhaust?

- Does it really matter which brand down pipe i get? I imagine they are all relatively the same...right?

- i came a cross catted and catlless down pipes. Whats the difference performance wise? And why would someone be getting a catted one any way as a mod??

- does having a down pipe and tune require to have air intake upgrades as well?? What about just having down pipes only with no tune?

Please advise. Much appreciated.

lol Alvin. Since I been searching for the whole DP for so long I sorta became an expert while being unable to decide. Well ok maybe not expert but I know enough :P

- Changing DP with full stock Rear (aka Axel Back) and Stock Mid Pipes will change the sound. Usually makes it deeper on idle. When you start driving it might get more screamy on higher RPMs. That will depend on the DPs. Seeing videos/sound will give you a general idea but it doesn't tell the whole story. Reving is a bad way to give you an idea of a exhaust sound.

- Brand doesn't matter AS much when it comes to Downpipes but the better known DPs are better. It's the same with most products really, trusted brands are better, the ones you don't know well you do it if you know them personally or just don't care. Evolution Racewerks, Gatini Flex v2, Akra, VRSF. Most of the well known Exhaust manufacturers have their own Downpipes. AA does, Eisenmann as well. There are a LOT lol.

- Catless are usually most of the DPs on the forums because they remove the restriction on the downpipes, which will get you the most performance gains. Sadly I know you live in So Cal so you should know this will 100% give you issues when it comes to SMOG inspection. Catless DPs will also trigger your car's engine light, which is personally why I ended up not doing it. High Flow Cat DPs will try to keep your emission in tact so hopefully it won't trigger the engine light and stay within SMOG. Although you probably won't get as much in the performance aspect then a true Catless DP, and I believe they are also more pricey.

- You do not need air intake. Air Intake is not necessary. Intakes are to do with airflow and engine, Downpipes are in a different area all together so they don't go hand in hand. I mean if you do DPs and Exhaust, yes changing Intake would give you more unique sound to your car but as you very well know Alvin, intakes are expensive and they do mod your engine technically. Something I personally would avoid at all cost.

If you do DPs with Full stock Rear and Mid, you won't get that bad smell. If you change Mid Pipes, the stock Rear Muffle would control it as well, if you do just a full Exhaust + DPs you will get that smell and it gets very bad if you like having windows down. That is why jayyp removed his DPs.

[Alvinized52]

Originally Posted by Arcades

lol Alvin. Since I been searching for the whole DP for so long I sorta became an expert while being unable to decide. Well ok maybe not expert but I know enough :P

- Changing DP with full stock Rear (aka Axel Back) and Stock Mid Pipes will change the sound. Usually makes it deeper on idle. When you start driving it might get more screamy on higher RPMs. That will depend on the DPs. Seeing videos/sound will give you a general idea but it doesn't tell the whole story. Reving is a bad way to give you an idea of a exhaust sound.

- Brand doesn't matter AS much when it comes to Downpipes but the better known DPs are better. It's the same with most products really, trusted brands are better, the ones you don't know well you do it if you know them personally or just don't care. Evolution Racewerks, Gatini Flex v2, Akra, VRSF. Most of the well known Exhaust manufacturers have their own Downpipes. AA does, Eisenmann as well. There are a LOT lol.

- Catless are usually most of the DPs on the forums because they remove the restriction on the downpipes, which will get you the most performance gains. Sadly I know you live in So Cal so you should know this will 100% give you issues when it comes to SMOG inspection. Catless DPs will also trigger your car's engine light, which is personally why I ended up not doing it. High Flow Cat DPs will try to keep your emission in tact so hopefully it won't trigger the engine light and stay within SMOG. Although you probably won't get as much in the performance aspect then a true Catless DP, and I believe they are also more pricey.

- You do not need air intake. Air Intake is not necessary. Intakes are to do with airflow and engine, Downpipes are in a different area all together so they don't go hand in hand. I mean if you do DPs and Exhaust, yes changing Intake would give you more unique sound to your car but as you very well know Alvin, intakes are expensive and they do mod your engine technically. Something I personally would avoid at all cost.

If you do DPs with Full stock Rear and Mid, you won't get that bad smell. If you change Mid Pipes, the stock Rear Muffle would control it as well, if you do just a full Exhaust + DPs you will get that smell and it gets very bad if you like having windows down. That is why jayyp removed his DPs.

Wow! Thanks for the full write-up and input Man! I believe I knew most of these basics above from what ive read... Just needed confirmation and more input. Never hurts to learn more.

At the end of the day, im still really undecided where the $$ is better spent. I really just want a better sound, nothing too loud... I dont like screamy rice rocket exhaust... I prefer deep gurgles like supercars. Unfortunately, i dont drive much since im always so busy... And work only 2 blocks away. That said, Im not going for racing so HP gain is really not my priority... but can't justify the expense of these high priced m-taxed exhaust systems. Someone mentioned why not use that money for downpipe and tune so I would atleast get better performance and better bang for the buck... And improved sound. My Car is also leased so i wasnt planning on super expensive performance mods until ive decided to keep the car after lease end.

I knew i wasnt alone in this dilemma! Lol

Btw, see you at the arcadia meet. Ehronius and I are planning on rolling up there this weekend.

[Arcades]

Originally Posted by Alvinized52

Wow! Thanks for the full write-up and input Man! I believe I knew most of these basics above from what ive read... Just needed confirmation and more input. Never hurts to learn more.

At the end of the day, im still really undecided where the $$ is better spent. I really just want a better sound, nothing too loud... I dont like screamy rice rocket exhaust... I prefer deep gurgles like supercars. Unfortunately, i dont drive much since im always so busy... And work only 2 blocks away. That said, Im not going for racing so HP gain is really not my priority... but can't justify the expense of these high priced m-taxed exhaust systems. Someone mentioned why not use that money for downpipe and tune so I would atleast get better performance and better bang for the buck... And improved sound. My Car is also leased so i wasnt planning on super expensive performance mods until ive decided to keep the car after lease end.

I knew i wasnt alone in this dilemma! Lol

Btw, see you at the arcadia meet. Ehronius and I are planning on rolling up there this weekend.

Cool See you then!

And yes, the main reason why I choose not to do DP is because of the headache. DP gives you a lot of it, especially if you have bad OCD like I do. If you are keeping your car like me, DPs will give you headaches down the line. Tunes will also bother you due to the obvious. You can of course do the open and close valve method like what BMW is apparently doing with the M2 exhaust but again that's just a go around.

For me there isn't a point in having valved if you have to control it. That is my problem. For me, it isn't worth it but that is really up to you to decide.

[Alvinized52]

Originally Posted by Arcades

Cool See you then!

And yes, the main reason why I choose not to do DP is because of the headache. DP gives you a lot of it, especially if you have bad OCD like I do. If you are keeping your car like me, DPs will give you headaches down the line. Tunes will also bother you due to the obvious. You can of course do the open and close valve method like what BMW is apparently doing with the M2 exhaust but again that's just a go around.

For me there isn't a point in having valved if you have to control it. That is my problem. For me, it isn't worth it but that is really up to you to decide.

Yeah. I see your point about the valve. I have the CG valve controller... I personally like being able to turn on or off the sound. I actually got followed and pulled over by a cop car in Glendale one time because i had it opened. Then i told them I had stock exhaust and turned it off. Got away with a warning. So thats one of those times im glad i had one.

[Arcades]

Originally Posted by darge82

To each their own.

No headaches with DPs or JB4 here. Everything works perfectly.

and your complaint about the valve thing. You press a button to open or close it. I do not see what the headache is in that? It could not get any more simple. If you want it to act as it does from the factory, you press a button. Press button again they stay open all the time, press again they close all the time....

Again it is my opinion. Majority of the forum people like the valve controller because they can control it but having to do DPs tend to mean you HAVE to add something to either delete the engine light or just deal with having the light on. That means you have to spend more money on it. I prefer having to avoid it doing it.

For me, you either go do the entire Exhaust or none at all really. Kinda go all in or not deal.

That is me of course. M-Tax is still M-Tax either way you're going to spend money

[Alvinized52]

Originally Posted by darge82

Welcome to the world of car modifying my friend....

If you remove the catalytic converters on ANY vehicle(not just BMW) you will have to purchase some other device that suppresses the check engine light. If you are thinking about buying a tune. You can kill 2 birds with 1 stone. Purchase a JB4, it shuts off the CEL plus many of the other benefits of it.

As far as having to replace the whole exhaust. Like you said, that is your opinion. For someone that wants to change their exhaust note, increase power and not spend a ton of money you do downpipes. Nice downpipes can be had for $500 top that off with a JB4 @ $800ish, for $1300 you can pick up a ton of power and make the car sound better. OR you can go spend $3500-$7000 on just a catback and gain no performance just a sound change....

Which brand DP do you have that's only $500? What's the typical cost to install and JB4?

By the way, whats the difference between a JB4 vs ESS Flash tune?!

[s0ul]

Originally Posted by Alvinized52

Which brand DP do you have that's only $500? What's the typical cost to install and JB4?

By the way, whats the difference between a JB4 vs ESS Flash tune?!

JB4 is a piggyback tune. (You open up the hood, plug in the cables)

ESS T500 is a Software Flash Tune. (Send in your ECU to get bench flashed)

I'm starting to consider this as well. JB4 or ESS Flash tune

tom @ eas can shed some light on this topic.

[Alvinized52]

Originally Posted by s0ul

JB4 is a piggyback tune. (You open up the hood, plug in the cables)

ESS T500 is a Software Flash Tune. (Send in your ECU to get bench flashed)

I'm starting to consider this as well. JB4 or ESS Flash tune

tom @ eas can shed some light on this topic.

Whats the difference in performance gain? Any downside for either one?

[ATH_M2]

Originally Posted by Alvinized52

Whats the difference in performance gain? Any downside for either one?

a jb4 or any piggy back is ultimately just a boost controller (adds more boost). There is no fuel/igntion/vanos control from it. A flash tune (ESS) changes all the values in the DME and is a "real tune" to me, but that's my opinion.

[s0ul]

Originally Posted by Alvinized52

Whats the difference in performance gain? Any downside for either one?

I'm not qualified to speak for both as I have not tested both. I'll let those who have speak for themselves.

[Alvinized52]

Originally Posted by AndyPac

a jb4 or any piggy back is ultimately just a boost controller (adds more boost). There is no fuel/igntion/vanos control from it. A flash tune (ESS) changes all the values in the DME and is a "real tune" to me, but that's my opinion.

Originally Posted by s0ul

I'm not qualified to speak for both as I have not tested both. I'll let those who have speak for themselves.

Do Flash tune or JB4 require downpipes or air intakes?

[Arcades]

Originally Posted by Alvinized52

Do Flash tune or JB4 require downpipes or air intakes?

no.

The difference between Flash and Piggy back from what Tom from eAs told me is, piggy back constantly fights your car while a flash tune won't since its written into the computer.

JB4 is popular though, so they are doing something right. Both can delete the engine light from DPs.

I'm unsure on the performance gain on either, but tom @ eas would know about the performance gain difference between ESS and JB4 since he is around them often on the Dyno.

I know though JB4 is handy because of the different maps and what not. I'm not sure on ESS.

[sawan]

Thank you very informative...here in South Africa JB tune is popular.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by darge82

No and No. You can run just a JB4 or Flash tune with nothing else. Heck you can run a Stage 1 @ the cost of only $379 and pick up a ton of power. However I would suggest the JB4 @ $800 because of the added features and if you decide to add DPs down the road.

+1

The JB4 or Stage1 are happy on 100% stock cars, and the JB4 is happy on fully modded cars as well.

We have a few customers even running stage1 on modified cars with downpipes . intakes, etc.

Mike

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by Alvinized52

Which brand DP do you have that's only $500? What's the typical cost to install and JB4?

VRSF price is less than $500 and that includes shipping as well
Top quality DP and fitment is spot on

Install time for a Jb4 is 1 hour so labor should be close to $100
That being said you can easily install it yourself. No need to pay someone to dpo it

Originally Posted by Alvinized52

Do Flash tune or JB4 require downpipes or air intakes?

No You can either one on stock cars or fully modified cars

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

VRSF are very popular and great fitment and quality without the M tax. I'd recommend stick with the JB4 tune if you plan on going with downpipes as the stage 1 is primarily designed for stock vehicles without future modification. Although the stage 1 is priced well it has much to be desired once you get the mod bug and want more features and power. I think everyone else answered all your other questions but if not I'll be happy to clarify further.