[lux.sh]

Originally Posted by wheeler

Did BMW have to rerate any of their HP numbers? Uh, no.

No, BMW tested their vehicles in production form. Ok, good job bmw.

With nitro, my Bimmer will hit 350 hp. Is that not overrating my HP?

That is the stupidest comparison i've ever heard. Yeah, Im sure manufacturers will hide the fact that the car is equipped with secret nitro and just plain advertised 350hp All-Motor!! Give me a break, regular gasoline used in auto market is distinctively different.

I'm not trying to bash anyone, or any brand, but you have to incredibly naive to believe that they (Honda, Toyota) did not know they were measuring HP using every trick they could find to get the highest possible number for marketing purposes.

New standards eliminated their use of those tricks, hence lower numbers.

DOH.
It seems like you are pretty heart-broken to realize business world uses whatever marketing strategy they can, to simply complete one task. "Sell". I specifically said, "FALSE ADVERTISEMENT". It is NOT false advertisement, because old SAE rule had many ways to go around it. If it really was "false advertising", they would've gotten sued multiple times by millions of customers. I never said anything about trick advertisement. KEYWORD: FALSE. You are right about tricks. Its called simple Over-rating and Under-rating trend that has been happening in the market for forever. Welcome to 2006. New SAE guidelines would prevent manufacturers from doing that. Simple as that. Big DEAL. Its not like they advertised fake 20 wheel horsepower. 4~12hp lost at the crank is not a major performance downside. Perhaps, most of the hondas used high-octane gas trick to pull out more numbers. Chill out.

[lux.sh]

Originally Posted by RyBMW

You're right. I should've said "My experience with my TL". I didn't mean to make it seem like the TL is a terrible car. I just wanted to explain what problems I had.

I miss that car somtimes. The engine was great. Powerful and smooth. Clutch and tranny are one of the best I ever driven. The ELS DVD-A sound system is awesome.

I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but the TSX and RL doesn't have the build quality flaws. I think it has something to do with the Marysville, Ohio plant where the cars are built. But this might not be true. My uncle's 04 Altima, built in TN, is rock solid. Not one single rattle. Albeit the interior material is cheap but it's put together well. The car has 60K miles already . Bought it in Feb. 04.

There are rumors of the next gen TL being equipped with the SH-AWD.

Now that sounds alot better. We totally understand your situation.

Yes, TSX/RL is quality built, I bet even though have flaws though, just like any other cars.

[AW330i]

Originally Posted by lux.sh

That "FWD, torque steering, understeering" piece of crap is faster than our 330i.

Low-end torque does lack, but once lift occurs, that it screams just like any other typical hondas. great top-end. In a "race", top-end is what really matters anyway. Most of the time you are in high-rpm range. Low-end is meant for daily driving. Its not like TL's low-end torque is SOOO bad(like 4cyl hondas), that it can't be forgiven. You all need to stop under-rating a great car.

Allright I really was reluctant to jump in on this thread but what the hell. The other day my friend told me that he wanted to race me in his new TL, I told him I would but only if it were on the freeway so that he couldnt gripe about getting a bad start. He agreed and off we went. We started at 65 mph me being in 3rd and I must admit he did pull on me from the start but once I hit 5k I started catching up; by 6k we were dead even; at redline I was out ahead by a half a car; the shift to fourth and then it was over for the TL as I continued to put distance between us. The car most certainly does not beat the 330i in terms of racing and does not come anywhere close to handling as well. Before I go any further let me clear something up my last car was a 2004 Honda Accord EX V6 Six-speed with nav satelite radio and every other option you could get. The TL reminds me of the Accord in so many ways and it is a great car but if you ask me it has nothing on the 330i. In corners the TL has no composure, there is emense body roll and the car comes with terrible tires in comparison to the stock 330i tires.

[lux.sh]

Originally Posted by AW330i

Allright I really was reluctant to jump in on this thread but what the hell. The other day my friend told me that he wanted to race me in his new TL, I told him I would but only if it were on the freeway so that he couldnt gripe about getting a bad start. He agreed and off we went. We started at 65 mph me being in 3rd and I must admit he did pull on me from the start but once I hit 5k I started catching up; by 6k we were dead even; at redline I was out ahead by a half a car; the shift to fourth and then it was over for the TL as I continued to put distance between us. The car most certainly does not beat the 330i in terms of racing and does not come anywhere close to handling as well. Before I go any further let me clear something up my last car was a 2004 Honda Accord EX V6 Six-speed with nav satelite radio and every other option you could get. The TL reminds me of the Accord in so many ways and it is a great car but if you ask me it has nothing on the 330i. In corners the TL has no composure, there is emense body roll and the car comes with terrible tires in comparison to the stock 330i tires.

One "street race" is simply a good way to put both car's engine performance aspect in place.

I will retract my previous statement regarding "it will smoke us". I have to say though, as much as they aren't any faster than us, that theory applies the same to 330i. I don't see 330i outperforming on straights on TL. Only time will tell, when we starting seeing 1/4mile track numbers. We already know what TLs are pulling, so we should wait until 330i drag gurus provide us with some numbers.

I have to agree though, TL and Accord is so damn similar. Well, TL is the "souped-up" Accord. Practically same cars. TL's handling probably isn't as good as bmw, even though when it comes to chassis anaylsis, TL pulled better numbers on skidpad(0.91g vs 0.89g) and lane change mph(62.5mph vs 61.7mph). BMW's 3 series handling is the best in its class. No question about that, and if anybody argues that point, let me bring out my samurai swords.

[visor]

Originally Posted by lux.sh

No, BMW tested their vehicles in production form. Ok, good job bmw.

\

That is the stupidest comparison i've ever heard. Yeah, Im sure manufacturers will hide the fact that the car is equipped with secret nitro and just plain advertised 350hp All-Motor!! Give me a break, regular gasoline used in auto market is distinctively different.



DOH.
It seems like you are pretty heart-broken to realize business world uses whatever marketing strategy they can, to simply complete one task. "Sell". I specifically said, "FALSE ADVERTISEMENT". It is NOT false advertisement, because old SAE rule had many ways to go around it. If it really was "false advertising", they would've gotten sued multiple times by millions of customers. I never said anything about trick advertisement. KEYWORD: FALSE. You are right about tricks. Its called simple Over-rating and Under-rating trend that has been happening in the market for forever. Welcome \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
to 2006. New SAE guidelines would prevent manufacturers from doing that. Simple as that. Big DEAL. Its not like they advertised fake 20 wheel horsepower. 4~12hp lost at the crank is not a major performance downside. Perhaps, most of the hondas used high-octane gas trick to pull out more numbers. Chill out.

lux, lux, usually you're quite amiable, but I understand from another thread that you like to stir the pot a little bit for people who're blind badge followers, whether it be BMW or Acura or etc. Please understand that I'm NOT one of those.

A bit of background: my previous cars were 78 Civic hatchback, 82 Civic sedan, 84 Prelude, 91 Jetta, 98 Accord V6, 02 330i; so, you see, I used to be into Honda's like yourself. But once I tasted the European driving experience in the Jetta, I was hooked and had to testdrive BMW. Since then, I've been thoroughly hooked.

Understand that we have nothing against Honda/Acura when we comment on earlier TL problems and Acura's over-rating of their engines, so you don't have to get all defensive about it. We're not trying to put down any brands at all, just stating the facts as car enthusiasts sharing information amongst each other.

When Wheeler mentioned nitro, he was just trying to exaggerate on the point you were making with ultra super premium gas that Acura must be using to rate their engines. The point (and fact) is that Acura had over-rated their engines, plain and simple. Notice I didn't say they were fraudulent or even misleading. I didn't even put down the brand name. On the contrary, I commend Acura for owning up to their over-rating; although it'll be interesting to hear how their salespersons will explain to prospective buyers why 2006 engines have 4-5% less hp than 2005's.

[NaTuReB0Y]

Originally Posted by visor

lux, lux, usually you're quite amiable, but I understand from another thread that you like to stir the pot a little bit for people who're blind badge followers, whether it be BMW or Acura or etc. Please understand that I'm NOT one of those.

A bit of background: my previous cars were 78 Civic hatchback, 82 Civic sedan, 84 Prelude, 91 Jetta, 98 Accord V6, 02 330i; so, you see, I used to be into Honda's like yourself. But once I tasted the European driving experience in the Jetta, I was hooked and had to testdrive BMW. Since then, I've been thoroughly hooked.

Understand that we have nothing against Honda/Acura when we comment on earlier TL problems and Acura's over-rating of their engines, so you don't have to get all defensive about it. We're not trying to put down any brands at all, just stating the facts as car enthusiasts sharing information amongst each other.

When Wheeler mentioned nitro, he was just trying to exaggerate on the point you were making with ultra super premium gas that Acura must be using to rate their engines. The point (and fact) is that Acura had over-rated their engines, plain and simple. Notice I didn't say they were fraudulent or even misleading. I didn't even put down the brand name. On the contrary, I commend Acura for owning up to their over-rating; although it'll be interesting to hear how their salespersons will explain to prospective buyers why 2006 engines have 4-5% less hp than 2005's.

so it could be classified as an Ultra low emission vehicle......green house effect, ozone depletion, etc. el.....

[lux.sh]

Originally Posted by visor

When Wheeler mentioned nitro, he was just trying to exaggerate on the point you were making with ultra super premium gas that Acura must be using to rate their engines. The point (and fact) is that Acura had over-rated their engines, plain and simple. Notice I didn't say they were fraudulent or even misleading. I didn't even put down the brand name. On the contrary, I commend Acura for owning up to their over-rating; although it'll be interesting to hear how their salespersons will explain to prospective buyers why 2006 engines have 4-5% less hp than 2005's.

I exactly understand what you are saying, and did with Wheeler's post too. And he came up to me with a real a$$hole-ish tone, and I wasn't about to let that slide. I simply said about the fact that it wasn't false advertising(using marketing tricks, yes), and he came up with that sarcastic tone. I don't think so. I obviously knew what SAE rating had to do with this, and it is a trick. who does he think he is to lecture me about SAE rating?

Few standard differences from OLD vs NEW standards:

Old: You must have an alternator/ AC / PS / water pump hooked up.
New: You must have the PRODUCTION alt / AC / PS / water pump hooked up.

Old: the engine must have the specified oil in it.
New: The engine must have the specified oil and specified oil level in it.

Old: the engine must be in a customer state of tune
New: The engine must be in "the" customer production state of tune.

Old: the engine must be rated with customer available fuel
New: if you test on 93, you must state "premium required" If you only "require" 87, you cannot state numbers achieved on 91/93.

Simply, old SAE guidelines had holes everywhere and manufacturers were ready to go around it. BMW sure didn't. The domestics and japanese did. Shame on them!

[ben1364]

Originally Posted by Pretender

Damn. I don't know why people compare TL with 330i. TL is just like an Accord with luxury packages. It makes more sense to compare G35 with 330i. No bias tho. If not bmw, the next choice should be G35, not TL.

___________________________

Agreed. It is apples and oranges. BTW, the G 35 is quite a car, as Pretender indicated.

[stressdoc]

People compare cars that they are interested in buying. Woobah appears to want a nice, fun car to commute in that has a good navi and a decent backseat. The TL & E90 both fall into that category. I will take a close look at the TL before I get an E90 as well, because a big backseat is important. But Euro delivery is a big plus for me, so the TL (or camry or accord) starts with a strike against it. The BMWs I have had have been more reliable than the Hondas (2 Odyssey vans), which are clearly made with lower quality parts. This thread is not about a magazine comparo test; it is a real world choice, with one individual's priorities. It was not intended to get so many posters amped up into a 'my brand is better than yours competition'.

[ben1364]

[QUOTE=lux.sh]One "street race" is simply a good way to put both car's engine performance aspect in place.
__________________________________________________ __Street racing is dangerous. Please take it to the track.

[ben1364]

Originally Posted by stressdoc

People compare cars that they are interested in buying. Woobah appears to want a nice, fun car to commute in that has a good navi and a decent backseat. The TL & E90 both fall into that category. I will take a close look at the TL before I get an E90 as well, because a big backseat is important. But Euro delivery is a big plus for me, so the TL (or camry or accord) starts with a strike against it. The BMWs I have had have been more reliable than the Hondas (2 Odyssey vans), which are clearly made with lower quality parts. This thread is not about a magazine comparo test; it is a real world choice, with one individual's priorities. It was not intended to get so many posters got amped up into a 'my brand is better than yours competition'.

__________________________________________________ _
Euro delivery is available for several other brands too.

[Juve29]

If you want a nice sporty car go with the BMW, but if you want more space and more luxury then go with the TL. I know that everyone on this forum is BMW bias, but sometimes you just have to face reality. My friend has 2004 Acura TL I've driven the car a few times and let me tell you the interior is much nicer in the TL. The layout is more elegant, the seats are thicker and better looking. The overall interior feels much more luxurious in the TL than it does in the BMW. Actually in that price category I think the TL has the nicer interior of all of them by far. Who ever says the the BMW as a nicer interior has never been inside the TL. The BMW interior feels empty and uninspired compare to the TL. Furthermore, the driving dynamics of the TL are not that bad. But I have to admit that the overall package of the BMW is better than the BMW. When I drive both car one after the other I realize rigth away that despite the fact that the TL has a nicer interior it does not compare in anyway to the BMW in terms of driving dynamics. The BMW begs to be driven while the TL is more of a passenger car. Exterior styling the BMW wins hands down, eventhough I have to admit the TL is a handsom car.

[stressdoc]

Yes, Euro delivery is available for other brands, but I don't want a Volvo or MB, and Audi is not there yet. Porsche charges extra. Europe in an E90/1 is as good as it gets for me.

[ben1364]

Originally Posted by stressdoc

Yes, Euro delivery is available for other brands, but I don't want a Volvo or MB, and Audi is not there yet. Porsche charges extra. Europe in an E90/1 is as good as it gets for me.

__________________________________________________ _
I agree with you regarding the other Euro delivery choices at the moment and also agree that the Euro Delivery experience is outstanding. BMW has an excellent program.

[BrunoT]

The BMW is the ultimate driving machine, but it is an also-ran as a luxury sedan. Meaning, it is luxurious but other cheaper cars may do it as well or better.

You either want that handling prowess or you don't care that much about it. The BMW can be luxuriously outfitted, but it may not strike some as being soft and cushy enough. Rear seat room is passable, but not as big as the Acura. The biggest difference is in things like road feel, brake pedal feel, steering precision, and intangibles concerning the driving experience. I find FWD unsatisfying when pulling out into traffic or accelerating hard.

The Acura MAY be more reliable and trouble-free, but the BMW has 50K miles of free maintenance the Acura lacks.

Resale on both is very good.

The Acura is quicker than the 325i, and probably about as quick as the 330i. The 325i is now pretty quick for most types of sane real-world use, though.

Not sure on your price differentials. You can get into a 325i for $30,000 or spend nearly $50,000 on a loaded 330i. The Acura has a lot of "goodies" that you'd drive a BMW's price way up to match. Most of them I could easily do without, but many buyers in this class love their techo gadgets.

You'll get less attitude from other drivers in the Acura. BMW's elicit negativity in some people.

[Carnage]

Originally Posted by Juve29

The BMW begs to be driven while the TL is more of a passenger car.

That's a great statement that pretty much sums up the difference. If your main concern is hauling people around then buy the TL or a school bus for that matter. If your main concern is making yourself happy and owning a great car to DRIVE that's second to none in terms of sports sedans, then buy the BMW.

[DTM]

I know a guy that just bought a TL 3 days ago, and is fully satisfied. He came from an Audi Allroad for 60 grand or something, but traded it in because the maintance costs were HUGE. An Acura TL isn't boring to drive, but the 3-series is definitely much more of a drivers car. Practicality vs. Enjoyement.

[WooBah]

Originally Posted by stressdoc

People compare cars that they are interested in buying. Woobah appears to want a nice, fun car to commute in that has a good navi and a decent backseat. The TL & E90 both fall into that category. I will take a close look at the TL before I get an E90 as well, because a big backseat is important. But Euro delivery is a big plus for me, so the TL (or camry or accord) starts with a strike against it. The BMWs I have had have been more reliable than the Hondas (2 Odyssey vans), which are clearly made with lower quality parts. This thread is not about a magazine comparo test; it is a real world choice, with one individual's priorities. It was not intended to get so many posters got amped up into a 'my brand is better than yours competition'.

Very well stated! You are correct with your assumptions regarding my reasons for looking/comparing the TL and 330i. I want a fun, classy, good navi, and decent back seat sport/luxury sedan.

I have learned a great deal from this thread. You folks are GREAT! And, you all have a wealth of knowledge. I sincerely thank all of you for sharing your knowledge, opinions, and suggestions with me and others. Thank you.

[RGRAY]

Originally Posted by WooBah

...I want a fun, classy, good navi, and decent back seat sport/luxury sedan.

So why are you looking at the Accura TL?

[WooBah]

Originally Posted by RGRAY

So why are you looking at the Accura TL?

Well, the TL appears to have a little more room than the 330i. Plus, I think the TL is a cool looking car. This has and is a tough decision for me. If the 330i provided as much room and comfortable ride for back seat passengers as the TL, I would be going with the 330i; NO question!

In any event, I will be making my decision by the end of the week.

[RGRAY]

Originally Posted by WooBah

Well, the TL appears to have a little more room than the 330i. Plus, I think the TL is a cool looking car...

You should get what you like, but a luxury (Japanese) Honda is not a BMW.

You are correct about the back seat being a little large, BUT that is not the most important thing in deciding on a $40,000 car.

[NaTuReB0Y]

Originally Posted by RGRAY

You should get what you like, but a luxury (Japanese) Honda is not a BMW.

You are correct about the back seat being a little large, BUT that is not the most important thing in deciding on a $40,000 car.

and a BMW is not a luxury Japanese Honda either....goes both ways.

just buy the car that suits your everyday need.....everyone has his/her opinion.