M4 First Extended Drive; Two Irritations

[gthal]

Originally Posted by 1stm3f80

I drive in sport+ not heavy enough. At all.

Man... you must have some serious muscles... at least compared to me

[gthal]

Originally Posted by Sapper_M3

Not saying you're wrong; just looking for a reference here: Where did Chris Harris A-B comparison the F8X EPS vs the E9X HPS and say he loved the F8X steering better?

I remember reading his review notes, and he said he had no issue with the steering of the F8X. Something akin to it not feeling like HPS, but it was very, very accurate. Then I remember he said fanboys have all forgotten their history if they think the E46 and E9X steering were flawless (pointing out the lightness of E46 steering and the off-center deadspot of the E9X steering).

Find a copy of his long review video and start at 2:07 in... he says the following in the actual video...

The steering is not full of that stuff that people call "feel"... but much better than the E92 which was a little bit artificial and frankly didn't give you much information and also was probably a bit too quick. This one (F80) is nicely judged for speed...

... and then he goes on to discuss the various modes.

[M4Sydney]

Originally Posted by thebishman

1: Replace the sun visors with the European version;

2: welcome to Electric Power Steering. Whilst the M4 steering is highly accurate, it does not give great feedback like the best of the 'old' hydraulic systems, and is far too heavy, even in Comfort mode.

Bish

Hahaha maybe a gym membership is in order?

[YianniM3]

I keep everything in sport plus all the time

[Sapper_M3]

Originally Posted by gthal

Find a copy of his long review video and start at 2:07 in... he says the following in the actual video...

... and then he goes on to discuss the various modes.

Thanks!

[1stm3f80]

My wife's 2010 x5 steering feels stiffer than my M3 in sport plus

[IEDEI]

Originally Posted by M3OW

I don't agree with your generalization. Not all eps systems are lacking, try driving a new cayman, you wouldn't even know it has eps. Steering feel is better than almost any hydraulic steering I've ever driven.

yes you do definitely feel it's an EPS.

I drove a Cayman GTS on a track and it was clearly inferior in steering feel to my 1M.....EPS still has a loooong ways to go, IMO. the 1M, in comparison, felt amazing in terms of steering characteristics.

[kitw]

Originally Posted by M3OW

If you liked the 991 steering, you will be blown away with the caymans which is much better in every measurable way. Try test driving a 2015 cayman s or better yet a GTS. The steering is sooooo sweet. You can feel every pebble on the road, very precise and accurate. In fact I would have to say it's more precise that my old 2010 gt3 and almost on the same level in terms of feedback coming through the rim.

Uh, the Cayman's steering is exactly the same as my 981 Boxster S. It's EPS and the same rack.

Nah, no feel at all, although it is very precise and accurate. Not even close to the 997 in terms of feel, though.

[Lessthanzero]

I'm good with Sport. Sport+ feels a tad heavy and comfort, is just that. I like the feel of Sport, however.

On the other hand, I hate the federally mandated stickers on the vizors. (Not to mention registration and inspection stickers in the windshield.)

[M3OW]

Originally Posted by kitw

Uh, the Cayman's steering is exactly the same as my 981 Boxster S. It's EPS and the same rack.

Nah, no feel at all, although it is very precise and accurate. Not even close to the 997 in terms of feel, though.

It may be the same rack but it definelty feels better than any 981 Boxster or cayman I've ever driven. Maybe some software tweaks on the 2015? It also may be related to the new sport suspension, different shocks/springs and camber settings. My cayman gts has tons of feel. Go test drive a 2015 and see for yourself.

[M3OW]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

yes you do definitely feel it's an EPS.

I drove a Cayman GTS on a track and it was clearly inferior in steering feel to my 1M.....EPS still has a loooong ways to go, IMO. the 1M, in comparison, felt amazing in terms of steering characteristics.

I don't agree at all sorry. The 1m just like the e9x with servtronic, may have "feel" but it's artificial in comparison to the gts. According to steve suttclife, the cayman gts with x73 sport suspension has the best steering feel of any modern car on sale.

[2sporty]

Originally Posted by thebishman

1: Replace the sun visors with the European version;

2: welcome to Electric Power Steering. Whilst the M4 steering is highly accurate, it does not give great feedback like the best of the 'old' hydraulic systems, and is far too heavy, even in Comfort mode.

Bish

1) thanks for the advice on this!
2) does u even lift, brah?

[Rubber Ducky]

There's a Corvette online shop that sells black vinyl overlay stickers for the visor warnings. $15 or so. Bigger than you'll need but can be trimmed or used full size. Google a bit. Had/have on both my Vettes and do end the endless agony of ugly visor warnings.

[IEDEI]

Originally Posted by M3OW

I don't agree at all sorry. The 1m just like the e9x with servtronic, may have "feel" but it's artificial in comparison to the gts. According to steve suttclife, the cayman gts with x73 sport suspension has the best steering feel of any modern car on sale.

just telling you what I felt driving them. I love the Cayman GTS otherwise, but for me the steering was definitely a low point....it felt very artificial with too must electronic adjustment going on. I felt the predictability of the actual feel and communication was significantly diminished. To me, the E9X M3/1M steering is one of the best thing about those cars....alert, alive, and quite organic in it's communication.

[thebishman]

Originally Posted by M3OW

I don't agree with your generalization. Not all eps systems are lacking, try driving a new cayman, you wouldn't even know it has eps. Steering feel is better than almost any hydraulic steering I've ever driven.

Steering 'feel' historically in Porsches has been phenomenal. Definitely one of the best out there, so it doesn't surprise me when you state that even the new EPS system in modern Porsches is excellent. Bare in mind one thing however: in the 911 and Cayman variants there is no engine in the front hence weight over the steered wheels is markedly reduced versus a vehicle that isn't mid or rear engined. This has a tremendous effect on how the steering 'feels'.
Bish

[ss134]

Originally Posted by gthal

Started with Sport but ended up with Sport Plus. For the street Sport Plus is too heavy but, for some reason, I preferred it at the track. Maybe because the steering is very responsive and the extra steering weight felt like I had more finite control.

I use Sport + steering all the time- I prefer the feel of a heavier steering set up.

[rick berry]

I was actually pleasantly suprised by the "feel" of my M4 steering. I now prefer the sport setting. If too heavy...set on comfort. Really don't have too much to bitch about with this car. I was a BIG M3 fan. M4 is better, faster, more comfortable.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

just telling you what I felt driving them. I love the Cayman GTS otherwise, but for me the steering was definitely a low point....it felt very artificial with too must electronic adjustment going on. I felt the predictability of the actual feel and communication was significantly diminished. To me, the E9X M3/1M steering is one of the best thing about those cars....alert, alive, and quite organic in it's communication.

its all personal, as you said. different people like different things.

ive owned a 997tt and driven plenty of 997 cars, including a gt3.

while I think the steering of those cars is excellent, I thought the EPS in the cayman s and 991s was equal, if not better in some ways. Maybe a little less "road feel", but plenty of accuracy which IMO is more important. It also loaded up very well in corners.

I thought the biggest issue with the e9x, and to a lesser degree, 1m steering is the variable assist. I hate it, and I think that's why a lot of people thought that steering felt artificial. it was confusing and unpredictable. it would randomly go from light to heavy, which I very much dislike and found disconcerting.

so, the EPS system in the porshe was perfect for me, because I liked the accuracy and predictable weighting. predictable is the way I would describe it. to me, I don't need to feel rocks on the road, I need the steering to do exactly what I want.

so in conclusion, it depends what you like.

I cannot comment on the f8x as I don't have enough seat time to properly judge. I hope the calibration is close the 991, if it is, ill be thrilled. I also hope for minimal speed variable assist, and expect to prefer the sport plus setting

[IEDEI]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

I thought the biggest issue with the e9x, and to a lesser degree, 1m steering is the variable assist. I hate it, and I think that's why a lot of people thought that steering felt artificial. it was confusing and unpredictable. it would randomly go from light to heavy, which I very much dislike and found disconcerting.

i have never thought it was 'random' in any of its actions....if anything, i find the 1Ms steering to be one of the most communicative and predictable of almost any modern car i've driven in the past several years. Yes there is adjustment with speed, however it feels like a linear adjustment. I felt the same about the E9X M3 steering when i drove that....speed sensitive 'stiffening' is nothing new and has been around for ages in european cars.

the previous generation 997s and Cayman that i'd driven felt far more connected in terms of steering feel. EPS is a technology that will surely evolve very rapidly IMO----but for all the cars i've driven with it, i definitely do sense some 'distance' between the driver input and the communication sent back through the wheel. I hope they improve that....

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

i have never thought it was 'random' in any of its actions....if anything, i find the 1Ms steering to be one of the most communicative and predictable of almost any modern car i've driven in the past several years. Yes there is adjustment with speed, however it feels like a linear adjustment. I felt the same about the E9X M3 steering when i drove that....speed sensitive 'stiffening' is nothing new and has been around for ages in european cars.

the previous generation 997s and Cayman that i'd driven felt far more connected in terms of steering feel. EPS is a technology that will surely evolve very rapidly IMO----but for all the cars i've driven with it, i definitely do sense some 'distance' between the driver input and the communication sent back through the wheel. I hope they improve that....

Like I said, personal opinion. I've driven / owned all those cars too.

[M3OW]

Originally Posted by thebishman

Steering 'feel' historically in Porsches has been phenomenal. Definitely one of the best out there, so it doesn't surprise me when you state that even the new EPS system in modern Porsches is excellent. Bare in mind one thing however: in the 911 and Cayman variants there is no engine in the front hence weight over the steered wheels is markedly reduced versus a vehicle that isn't mid or rear engined. This has a tremendous effect on how the steering 'feels'.
Bish

Agreed.

[M3OW]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

just telling you what I felt driving them. I love the Cayman GTS otherwise, but for me the steering was definitely a low point....it felt very artificial with too must electronic adjustment going on. I felt the predictability of the actual feel and communication was significantly diminished. To me, the E9X M3/1M steering is one of the best thing about those cars....alert, alive, and quite organic in it's communication.

Very strange because my cayman GTS with x73 sport suspension has some of the sweetest steering of any car I've driven. Maybe you should try driving the car on the road to make a better judgment. The 991 steering pales in comparison, and I'll go as far to say that the steering feel in the cayman is better than any bmw except maybe for the e36 and e30 m3 IMO.