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      11-22-2020, 10:08 AM   #45
Efthreeoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
I haven't driven those models so I can't speak to them. But I've never found BMW's EPS to be lacking in precision, it's more the lack of proper weighting and when such a thing is present, it's very artificial and needlessly heavy. The M cars I've driven are better, but I miss the days when even a base 3-series felt very dialed in.

Porsche's steering on the other hand provides that natural-feeling resistance against the front wheels that we covet. Macans and Cayennes are very popular so they've seem to have struck a proper balance between sportiness and daily usability. Why BMW refuses to do this is beyond my understanding.
What I don't understand about BMW is they made a great EPS system for the E85/86 (non-M). The steering column is power assisted rather than the steering rack. IMO this is how all EPS should be implemented. The EPS in the E85/86 does not feel artificial, gives good feedback, and has good weighting. Best is all the electronics and motor are inside the cabin protected from the elements. I didn't realize my E86 had EPS until I went looking to check for the PS fluid level after I brought it home from CarMax.
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A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."
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      11-23-2020, 11:02 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
What I don't understand about BMW is they made a great EPS system for the E85/86 (non-M). The steering column is power assisted rather than the steering rack. IMO this is how all EPS should be implemented. The EPS in the E85/86 does not feel artificial, gives good feedback, and has good weighting. Best is all the electronics and motor are inside the cabin protected from the elements. I didn't realize my E86 had EPS until I went looking to check for the PS fluid level after I brought it home from CarMax.
Yeah I read a while back the E85 had EPS and was very surprised. My DD Lexus also has EPS but it's probably a similar setup as the Z4 which is why it's so tight and brimming with road feel.
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      11-23-2020, 11:03 AM   #47
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There was no precision in the "dead spot" in the middle of the steering.
True, I should've specified I meant more on turn in.
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      11-23-2020, 01:04 PM   #48
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Of course the handling will be worse when comparing a runflat tire to a non runflat, given everything else is the same.

Of course the handling will be worse when comparing a thinner tire to a wider tire, given everything else the same, at least within these testing bounds.


Are the reviewing the quality of the car, or are they reviewing the tires?
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      11-23-2020, 01:06 PM   #49
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This is an example of clever marketing, plain and simple. It's designed to make potential K5 owners comfortable about a purchase decision. I've done a very similar dance before. Back in 2010/11, C&D had an article showing that the then new Mustang with the new coyote engine got similar numbers to the then new e92 M3 for half the price. I owned both cars. There's a reason why the M3 was more expensive. It's just a nicer, better built car.

I learned my lessen at that point that there's no real replacement for the real thing. Perhaps the numbers can be made to look more favorable for the cheaper alternative, but the experience behind the wheel--the intangibles are what you're paying for. I have not driven either car in this particular test, nor do I have any interest in owning either. But, IMO, it's the intangibles that sell the car. For others, it's the badge. I suspect that there's way more people wishing they could get into a 3 series but only have K5 money than people looking to buy a 3 series cars also seriously considering the K5 class of car.

The only thing that BMW has failed at is having equally as clever marketing. Although not a base 3 series, I very much enjoyed my time in a current gen M340.
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      11-23-2020, 01:41 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by New2Roundel View Post
This is an example of clever marketing, plain and simple. It's designed to make potential K5 owners comfortable about a purchase decision. I've done a very similar dance before. Back in 2010/11, C&D had an article showing that the then new Mustang with the new coyote engine got similar numbers to the then new e92 M3 for half the price. I owned both cars. There's a reason why the M3 was more expensive. It's just a nicer, better built car.

I learned my lessen at that point that there's no real replacement for the real thing. Perhaps the numbers can be made to look more favorable for the cheaper alternative, but the experience behind the wheel--the intangibles are what you're paying for. I have not driven either car in this particular test, nor do I have any interest in owning either. But, IMO, it's the intangibles that sell the car. For others, it's the badge. I suspect that there's way more people wishing they could get into a 3 series but only have K5 money than people looking to buy a 3 series cars also seriously considering the K5 class of car.

The only thing that BMW has failed at is having equally as clever marketing. Although not a base 3 series, I very much enjoyed my time in a current gen M340.
I donít know about this. Iíve smoked a few E92 M3s with my Ď14 GT Mustang at the track. It was a very capable car. I still miss the V8 every day compared to my M2. The BMW has nicer interior, better fit and finish. But I do miss the thrill of the GT. It wasnít so much riding a horse. It was like breaking one. Very visceral.
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      11-24-2020, 10:48 AM   #51
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But does the target audience of the 330i care? They don't.
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      11-24-2020, 11:08 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by arashir View Post
Are the reviewing the quality of the car, or are they reviewing the tires?
They're reviewing them exactly how they come off the lot just like nearly every other review that involves new car comparisons. Except this isn't a review, it's just a metrics test on what they consider to be important to handling. So obviously this is marketing. But the reason I quoted you is that every reviewer does the same thing. In that if they give their opinion on how this car definitely handled better during the comparison. But it could be entirely tire related like you mentioned. Yet the majority seem to accept that without question during those reviews. But in this instance it's being highly criticized.


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Originally Posted by P1 View Post
But does the target audience of the 330i care? They don't.
I agree considering the price gap on the two cars is 10k+. If someone is shopping for a 30K Kia I doubt they're also cross shopping cars that cost 40% more. I think it's more like New2Roundel said in that it pushes buyers into the Kia compared to other vehicles priced in the Kia's range. Not the BMW price range.
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      Yesterday, 08:29 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by New2Roundel View Post
This is an example of clever marketing, plain and simple. It's designed to make potential K5 owners comfortable about a purchase decision. I've done a very similar dance before. Back in 2010/11, C&D had an article showing that the then new Mustang with the new coyote engine got similar numbers to the then new e92 M3 for half the price. I owned both cars. There's a reason why the M3 was more expensive. It's just a nicer, better built car.

I learned my lessen at that point that there's no real replacement for the real thing. Perhaps the numbers can be made to look more favorable for the cheaper alternative, but the experience behind the wheel--the intangibles are what you're paying for. I have not driven either car in this particular test, nor do I have any interest in owning either. But, IMO, it's the intangibles that sell the car. For others, it's the badge. I suspect that there's way more people wishing they could get into a 3 series but only have K5 money than people looking to buy a 3 series cars also seriously considering the K5 class of car.

The only thing that BMW has failed at is having equally as clever marketing. Although not a base 3 series, I very much enjoyed my time in a current gen M340.
Clever marketing? How about "The Ultimate Driving Machine"? BMW has been running off that marketing tag-line for more than 40 years now. The problem is the last iterations of BMWs core driving machines, the 3-series and 5-series, are not the ultimate anymore. BMW has recently concentrated on other aspects of automobilizm (i.e. bullshit phone app tech) and other manufacturers have caught up to BMW at their own game. Go drive a Cadillac ATS as an example. Not having yet driven a G-series I can't make a comment on the intangibles, but I can surely state the F30 was a demarcation from BMW's decades of sport sedan dominance and being the benchmark; BMW dropping the manual trans from the G20 for the US market is a giant statement of proof. My familiarity with the BMW 3-series dates back to the late 1970s from the E21 through the F30. Four versions of 3-series sit out in my front yard as I type this (E36 - E90) and I have 18 years of E30 ownership under my belt as well.

The problem lies with computer-aided driving software. Once Ford developed software to keep it's under-inflated Explorers from rolling over on their tops, the tech propagated through the industry. By being able to control torque input at each wheel separately, almost any modern chassis can be made to be feel equally balanced both at high-speed stability and in the corners. BMW pioneered these handling traits for mass-market automobiles through mechanical chassis design of suspension geometry, frame architecture, weight balance, braking performance, and driving better wheel and tire design.

A decade ago, maybe there was no place for BMW to go engineering-wise and it's just the natural progression of the machine; but progress is making a BMW-esque machine at a lower price. My opinion is BMW has decided that is not the way they are going. Hyundai seems to be moving in that direction.

My 2 cents.
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A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."
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      Yesterday, 09:38 AM   #54
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BMW has a history of failed "improvements" in steering response. After a critique they took very personally in my review of the Active Steering product launch, I became personally involved in explaining to them how they failed with the early E60 5-series and was sent several "updated" examples to compare and even met a BMW AG engineer at Dulles Airport to drive one example with him to explain why we Americans hated the steering feel. (His first question was, "Where can we go to drive 100mph?") To their credit, they software engineered their way out of that problem, mostly,

They lost the feel when going from E to F on the 3-series but reacted (fairly) quickly and I believe by around 2016 they'd improved it dramatically. Now there's really no excuse to have made such bone-headed moves in the first place, but the criticism was so rampant that even today I get tire-kickers in the dealership complaining about BMW steering from what they've read in magazines and on-line forums—without driving the newer cars to see for their selves. If I can get them to actually drive the car on a good road, they readily admit it feels damn good. Personally I still prefer my E82 steering, but then I grew up on 2002s!

Automotive writers share the guilt by often assuming BMW steering still sucks and just writing about it without trying it. I remember being part of the international press corps for the E92 335i launch in Austria and Germany for Roundel way back when. My editor suggested I write the article on the plane on the way over to meet our deadline, but then he had much more experience as a paid scribe than did I. I refused. A famous and highly awarded automotive writer whose name starts with Kit and ends with -man missed his flight and was only able to join us—after we'd completed the two-days of driving in the mountain switchbacks—for dinner on the evening prior to scheduled departures. He never drove the car. And yet his article with all the usual BMW pros and cons came out about the same time mine did. How discouraging, but also telling.

Back when I was selling Porsche (20-years of it), I had a customer come in for a 911 test-drive. He said he understood all the criticism of the 911 oversteer, never mind that this was a much later version with huge rear-wheels and better balance, but he was voicing his prejudice right from the start. As we pulled out of the driveway onto our county road, he wiggled the steering wheel back and forth—at around 30mph—and emphatically announced that (Oh boy!) he could feel that notorious oversteer characteristic. Later in the drive he applied the brakes meekly from about 40-mph and proclaimed how magnificent the ABS system was! I also forgot to mention he began the test-drive by putting on his driving gloves! He'd have been better served by engaging his brain and butt dyno, but then this is what car salesmen put up with every day—the uniformed having their opinions shaped by writers who should know better but are just too lazy to do the research.

Go drive a new M340i and report back.
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      Yesterday, 12:17 PM   #55
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The Kia GT is awd. Kia GT line is fwd. it looks like the GT but w the less powerful motor.
The Kia GT has the upgraded turbo motor
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      Yesterday, 12:40 PM   #56
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You may have that reversed..

The more powerful model (GT) is FWD only and two of the lesser trims (GT-Line and LXS) are AWD optional (in the US). In Canada they're all AWD minus the GT which is FWD.

It seems like reverse logic but that's what both official sites say.
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