[gtsussex]

Originally Posted by Lorcan

Great review chaps

I'd just like to add that the RS suspension is adjustable over a wide range so if you find it a little firm and uncompromising you can always back it off. Just one click makes a significant difference. If I remember rightly Guy has the rebound at our recommended setting and the compression at 6 clicks front and 7 clicks rear (out of 16).

Yup, 6 front and 7 rear.

[Lorcan]

Originally Posted by gtsussex

Funnily enough Lorcan and I were talking about spring setup a while back. ACS lent Evo their M135i with RS kit on (and that was with dampers set tighter than mine which I would have thought made the ride uncomfortable) and they loved it!

More than happy to lend mine for the cause if you want Lorcan :-)

Thanks Guy, will bear it in mind. Dan Prosser has been promising a tour of German tuners for a little while, to include our M4 in Germany) but we've just sold our Range Rover so we are looking for a new demo car for the UK at the moment. It would be nice if that was an M4 on RS, but I think it might end up being a 335d!

[....,,,,..,,..]

Originally Posted by gtsussex

Funnily enough Lorcan and I were talking about spring setup a while back. ACS lent Evo their M135i with RS kit on (and that was with dampers set tighter than mine which I would have thought made the ride uncomfortable) and they loved it!

More than happy to lend mine for the cause if you want Lorcan :-)

Would be a good option, especially when your power bit is fully sorted.


Handing over an M4 with RS kit on, it's still an an M4 and out of the reach of most people financially

However, a 335d with RS and then a power upgrade, starts becoming very affordable for more people.

It also gives the 335d a very good used car upgrade path.

It's something you don't have to rush in to, suspension including tyres, then later power upgrade, then of course in between times, bit of body work stuff.

Very much how things used to be tbh.

[jumperjohn]

I'm booked into Birds for the ARBs, very excited! Anything to stop the missus holding onto the dash when I take a corner, no I'm not going fast either, I think she does it for effect rather than discomfort. The springs help but I'm looking for a touch more flatness through the long sweeping bends.

[jumperjohn]

Just to add, I spoke to Kevin Bird for around an hour, very pleasant and knowledgeable chap.

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by jumperjohn

I'm booked into Birds for the ARBs, very excited! Anything to stop the missus holding onto the dash when I take a corner, no I'm not going fast either, I think she does it for effect rather than discomfort. The springs help but I'm looking for a touch more flatness through the long sweeping bends.

Great to hear of someone else going for it!

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by Brigand

Excellent independant review.

Would be interesting having Evo etc do a decent write up on Guys car.

Obviously not going to happen, however would be good seeing a positive 'wow' piece.

I bet Birds/ ACS would like that as well

I actually offered them my car after the remap and Henry Catchpole said he would pass the offer on to Dan Prosser but didn't hear back.

In the main they tend to stick to standard cars, occasionally reviewing a DMS car, or The odd tuned one (ACS, revo, Litchfield). I suspect they try to stick to standard cars from an editorial position or else it's straying in to the world of modified cars, and hence a car like mine with bits and pieces from various places is not of interest.

Maybe one of the BMW enthusiast mags would be more suitable?

Or, I could ask what's wrong with our journalism!

[....,,,,..,,..]

Originally Posted by Tengocity

I actually offered them my car after the remap and Henry Catchpole said he would pass the offer on to Dan Prosser but didn't hear back.

In the main they tend to stick to standard cars, occasionally reviewing a DMS car, or The odd tuned one (ACS, revo, Litchfield). I suspect they try to stick to standard cars from an editorial position or else it's straying in to the world of modified cars, and hence a car like mine with bits and pieces from various places is not of interest.

Maybe one of the BMW enthusiast mags would be more suitable?

Or, I could ask what's wrong with our journalism!

I think it would make a great story for BMW drivers, not necessarily for BMW..

Also, it really does make the 335d a very nice prospect for a say a decent used example, when prices drop.

With those updates you would get a hell of a car for money.

[Watsey]

335xD + mods = M3-beating real-world performance for half the total cost.

[jumperjohn]

Originally Posted by Watsey

The car can now be hustled down a bumpy twisty road, rather than wrestled. This is what i'm encountering at the moment, pressing on a B road

My car is going into Birds' next week for ARBs, ACS springs, and MPSS.

Please could you do a short first impression of the items fitted and the Birds experience ?

I have the ACS springs and MSS tyres but the ARBs are being fitted a week after yours.

Will you be spending the day in Windsor? I was going to go into town and go to the science museum but may go to Windsor, a bit busy this time of year though.

[Watsey]

Originally Posted by jumperjohn

Please could you do a short first impression of the items fitted and the Birds experience ?

I have the ACS springs and MSS tyres but the ARBs are being fitted a week after yours.

Will you be spending the day in Windsor? I was going to go into town and go to the science museum but may go to Windsor, a bit busy this time of year though.

Hi jumperjohn

The whole package is being fitted to m car on the 22nd, so I won't be able to assess the incremental benefit of each component. My first journey will be ~200 miles on roads that I've driven for decades, so I know them very well; a real mix of motorways, sweeping A roads, and typical bumpy B roads. I'll post when I get there and let you know how the car handled.

I haven't driven an F3x that has ACS springs and MPSS but no ARBs, but the ARBs seem to make a huge difference and they do the stock dampers a lot of favours. When I was talking with Guy on the way back from the road test we agreed that the adaptive dampers seem to struggle with big or high frequency mid-corner inputs, and either open the valves (= wallow) or close the valves (= springs and dampers are fighting each other) in some effort to avoid operating at the extremes of their capabilities. This is difficult to describe, but the dampers seem to run out of ideas. The ARBs help here and although they won't make much/any difference per-se on straight roads, they play a big role in the corners.

I spoke with Rossiters (Lorcan) and Birds' regarding the fitting and in the end it was the logistics that swung it in Birds' favour - they are ~20 miles from where I live, whereas Rossiters is ~100. Birds' and AC Schnitzer companies have been improving BMWs for a long time, and I would have been happy to use either. Again, I'll post when the work is done, with my impressions.

Cheers

Ian

[matk]

Originally Posted by Watsey

So here are my thoughts as the unbiased independent in last night's back-to-back road test. It was very interesting and thanks Guy for the chance to drive your car.

Terry and Guy have covered things well, so I'll try and add what I feel are the key differentiators which have really helped with my decision-making.

Focussing on ride and handling, i.e leaving other things like power and brakes to one side, my starting point is the base car (in my case F31 330D sD). There are several problems with the stock build :

- RFTs are so hard that the ride quality is nadgety, they don't key into the road surface so they can scrabble for grip, straight line traction is compromised on wet/damp roads, and there's a horrible combination of understeer and weight through the bends.
- Spring rates and dampers (adaptive on mine) are not working in harmony, resulting in wallow/floating (bump is 'OK', but rebound is very poor especially in Comfort), and mid-corner bumps can result in very unsettling barrel-roll. Rapid direction changes tend to easily expose the shortcomings.
- The overall capability of the suspension set-up has a fairly limited performance envelope and on UK A/B roads it can be more a case of blind faith, rather than confidence that keeps you going.

The stock package is very compromised, to the extent that it really spoils my enjoyment of the car.

I drove Terry's car a few weeks ago and the combination of Birds' ARBs, ACS springs and MPSS makes a significant difference in ride quality, cornering neutrality, and roll. The three of us were talking before heading home last night and we all agree that the ARBs are helping the adaptive dampers massively. The ride is firm, the benefit of having adaptive dampers is retained, understeer is hugely reduced (also helped by the excellent Michelin Pilot Super Sports), and the car feels composed. The car can now be hustled down a bumpy twisty road, rather than wrestled. IMO the suspension will tackle British roads, with good control (driver limitations excepted...), up to, say, three figures.

For the majority of drivers who want to improve their car but still retain the comfort of a daily driver, this will tick most of the boxes.

On to Guy's ACS RS setup. No doubt about it, the ride is very firm around town and up to low-moderate speeds (say 50-70 mph) you feel every irregularity in the road surface BUT the suspension doesn't crash; it's busy, but not unpleasant. The dampers do an outstanding job of controlling body movement at speed, and handle primary and secondary inputs with aplomb. The car is absolutely tied-down to the road surface and there is a sense of 'immediacy' - no float, no wallow; you can feel exactly what's going on. Turn-in and neutrality are spot-on. Very impressive.

To me, and I'm no racing driver, the capability of the suspension felt very linear. From 50-70 mph the car really comes alive and, leaving aside the safety and moral aspects of big speeds on public roads, the cross-country capability could embarrass full M-cars; no doubt.

The more I drove Guy's car the more I liked it. The ride is very focussed, uncompromising, and if it was just me in the car I would be very tempted with the ACS RS setup; the additional confidence when one is 'on it' is worth having. However, I think it's just that bit too firm as an 'all day every day' car, and in reality I'd probably get an earful of complaints from my wife and kids when we all travel together, especially rattling along Devon roads where we visit regularly.

My car is going into Birds' next week for ARBs, ACS springs, and MPSS. This package makes such a positive difference to the car's capabilities that it is the sensible compromise (and actually not that big a compromise; I don't track my car) and won't cause any disappointment. It's also better value for money. Having driven each setup, they are similarly matched at sensible speeds and it's clear that a relatively modest amount of money can transform the ride, composure and capability - these are meant to be driver's cars, not boats. There will be moments, when I'm having a cracking drive on my own, when I will remember driving the RS setup and I'll think "what if...?", but for >90% of the time the car will still bring a smile to my face.

When I've had the work done, we must meet-up again and see how the sD and xD setups compare, and see how much the sD gives away in terms of traction versus what it gains in terms of steering feel and turn-in.

Bring it on !

this is exactly what i want done on mine, how much have birds quoted you for the package and does it include 4 wheel alignment?

[matk]

Great thread guys. I miss the handling of my E91 compared to my F31 and as great as the 330 engine is i sometimes miss chucking my old car around. Im really hoping the a few mods will help it and through the thoughts on this thread i think it will! Now to save the money up to get it done.

[HighlandPete]

Very interesting to read the comparisons, what different drivers feel and want from their drive.

Sense with any suspension comparisons we are back to compromises and what we personally view/choose as the 'sweet spot' for our typical drives.

I note the comments on the dampers and how they seem to get caught out. Same issue I guess, it is all about design and working compromises and where we put our personal working envelope, against BMW's signed off settings. Any changes and/or modifications, we can be build in some of these anomalies.

With my own setup, in the 5-series, I know something as simple as wheel sizes, change the characteristics. BMW clearly optimise a setup on a preferred wheel setup, even one step away changes and compromises something in handling and/or ride quality.

When I first got interested in Adaptive Drive, I read that BMW had optimised the suspension on 18" wheels, the first 530d I tried with AD had a strange characteristic, I noted it at the time.

Here’s the strangest part, at low speeds over the typical poor road repairs we all endure, say at 30mph, the sport setting is far superior, than running comfort mode. It is clear that the tyres are driving the suspension and poor road repairs just shock the softer suspension and make it all of a fidget and jitter, by comparison to the control the slightly firmer ride gives. If sport was any stiffer then crashing would intrude, but it is just soft enough to keep severe shocks out of the cabin.

My car on 18" wheels has no such issues, Sport mode has the typical feeling we expect, a bit more cabin intrusion, than the softer settings on poor surfaces. The 530d had 19" wheels with 275 section tyres on the rear, so a different wheel reaction altogether. For me, that change alone compromised the full benefit of adaptive damping. In my opinion BMW need different VDC software for each wheel size, to keep optimum performance.

What I'm saying, we (even BMW) can so easily change characteristics with simple modifications. Even more challenging when we go the route of "mix and match" aftermarket tuning.

Good to read that there are different (and successful) solutions and users come out with what they want from the chassis.

Clear to see why BMW can never satisfy all drivers out of the box.

HighlandPete

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by matk

Great thread guys. I miss the handling of my E91 compared to my F31 and as great as the 330 engine is i sometimes miss chucking my old car around. Im really hoping the a few mods will help it and through the thoughts on this thread i think it will! Now to save the money up to get it done.

This may have been the easiest way to describe what I really like about the car once I added the thicker anti roll bars... The car is fun and chuck able on the twisties! It's controlled and responsive.

[Watsey]

Originally Posted by matk

this is exactly what i want done on mine, how much have birds quoted you for the package and does it include 4 wheel alignment?

matk - PM me and I'll reply offline from this thread.

[Bee Pee]

Originally Posted by Watsey

335xD + mods = M3-beating real-world performance for half the total cost.

Its a fair point about the cost of an M3/4, however, having driven an Alpina D3 touring x drive [perhaps about the same level of chassis tuning and extra poke you are thinking of for your 335xd ???] back to back round Goodwood, I can assure you there's still a vast difference between a supposedly well sorted touring x drive v a stock M3/4.

M car chassis was outstanding by comparison however given the extra ££££ spend M car v 335xd, anything you can do to an x drive car to dial out understeer, improve the cars balance and behave more neutrally are huge steps in the right direction.

I like the feedback written about the RS c/o car........that's probably where I'd put my money if I was on the fence.

[Watsey]

Originally Posted by Bee Pee

Its a fair point about the cost of an M3/4, however, having driven an Alpina D3 touring x drive [perhaps about the same level of chassis tuning and extra poke you are thinking of for your 335xd ???] back to back round Goodwood, I can assure you there's still a vast difference between a supposedly well sorted touring x drive v a stock M3/4.

M car chassis was outstanding by comparison however given the extra ££££ spend M car v 335xd, anything you can do to an x drive car to dial out understeer, improve the cars balance and behave more neutrally are huge steps in the right direction.

I like the feedback written about the RS c/o car........that's probably where I'd put my money if I was on the fence.

Debatable whether an Alpina D3 xDrive is "well sorted" in the context of the thread. Alpina produces great cars, but I'd say its core market is 'quick & refined GT' rather than sports car. They're still a bit soft, and that tends to be the verdict of the top-tier car mags.

Personally I thought the D3 Bi-turbo had a very good suspension setup (I test drove a few and didn't need to back-off when getting a move-on cross-country) and that's what I'm hoping to achieve with the mods to my 330sD Touring. Some comfort and a lot more control.

Is the M3/4 a 'proper' M-car ? I don't know, I don't own one. but a lot of the reviews seem not to rate them as highly as the previous generation cars. Some like the softer, more exploitable, everyday performance and some think they've lost a lot of sharpness in the responses. The ACS RS setup provides that in spades on the F30/31, hence the reflection that it would give an M3/4 a run for its money.

[....,,,,..,,..]

Originally Posted by Watsey

Debatable whether an Alpina D3 xDrive is "well sorted" in the context of the thread. Alpina produces great cars, but I'd say its core market is 'quick & refined GT' rather than sports car. They're still a bit soft, and that tends to be the verdict of the top-tier car mags.

Personally I thought the D3 Bi-turbo had a very good suspension setup (I test drove a few and didn't need to back-off when getting a move-on cross-country) and that's what I'm hoping to achieve with the mods to my 330sD Touring. Some comfort and a lot more control.

Is the M3/4 a 'proper' M-car ? I don't know, I don't own one. but a lot of the reviews seem not to rate them as highly as the previous generation cars. Some like the softer, more exploitable, everyday performance and some think they've lost a lot of sharpness in the responses. The ACS RS setup provides that in spades on the F30/31, hence the reflection that it would give an M3/4 a run for its money.

The other key thing on top of affordability between the fully sorted 335d and an M3, is you don't need worry overly on the weather.

It's a 365 days car, with the Xdrive nice and sure footed in the wet / damp.

[Watsey]

Originally Posted by Brigand

The other key thing on top of affordability between the fully sorted 335d and an M3, is you don't need worry overly on the weather.

It's a 365 days car, with the Xdrive nice and sure footed in the wet / damp.

but I've got an sD, which means my next investment may need to be a Quaife diff

[Lorcan]

Originally Posted by Watsey

Debatable whether an Alpina D3 xDrive is "well sorted" in the context of the thread. Alpina produces great cars, but I'd say its core market is 'quick & refined GT' rather than sports car. They're still a bit soft, and that tends to be the verdict of the top-tier car mags.

Personally I thought the D3 Bi-turbo had a very good suspension setup (I test drove a few and didn't need to back-off when getting a move-on cross-country) and that's what I'm hoping to achieve with the mods to my 330sD Touring. Some comfort and a lot more control.

Is the M3/4 a 'proper' M-car ? I don't know, I don't own one. but a lot of the reviews seem not to rate them as highly as the previous generation cars. Some like the softer, more exploitable, everyday performance and some think they've lost a lot of sharpness in the responses. The ACS RS setup provides that in spades on the F30/31, hence the reflection that it would give an M3/4 a run for its money.

We view Alpinas as gentlemen's cars and AC Schnitzer as driver's cars. Have a look through the German and English versions of the Autobild test on this page if you are in any doubt about what can be done with an M4 and how it compares to the E92 M3

http://www.ac-schnitzer.de/en/bmw-ca.../general-info/

[JustChris]

Man these threads again.

M cars are fine in all weather, glad to hear you all still drive at 10/10ths in the snow and rain in an X Drive though so yes maybe high power RWD is not for you, personally I slow down in inclement weather
Sounds like you have found the answer, 335D plus spring and tune, boom M3 killer
M3/4 current gen, not a real M car

Sigh. Guess no one wants an M car then.