08-05-2015, 11:04 AM | #1 |
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HR Springs too weak for stock shocks.
I was running the HR springs on my 235, and ride felt a bit harsh, so I jacked up the car took off the dust jacket and set down. Car is riding on the bumpstop.
I then jacked the car up again, and removed the bumpstop and set down. Car had maybe a half inch of free shock travel (would be none with any bumpstop). I removed the spring, installed the stock spring and everything was back to spec. I checked the rear and seemed to almost be on the bumpstop as well. I got in Dinan springs today, will not have time to install for a week or so, but out of the box, they are wider than HR and the standing on test (very scientific) seems to show they are significantly stiffer. Just want people to be aware of the issue, as it is not visible without the dust shield removed. One caveat is I am running camber plates and M3 control arms. This does change the geometry. I would say anyone tracking the car should avoid the HR Springs. |
08-05-2015, 07:33 PM | #4 |
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I spoke to Dinan today, great customer service, I wanted to know how much free play there should be between the shock and the Bump stop, basicly they said very little (no magic number he said).
They have a m235i test car and the engineers said about 1/4 inch on that car before it hits there bump stops. There bump stops are part of the spring rate and why they call it the suppmental ride kit. So basically it can be close, but not compressing or touching. I should have them installed in a week or so and will report back on the clearance. Hopefully this will work, I hate to loose the BMW suspension as it is quite advanced, and the car is only 100 lbs front heavy, so coilovers are not going to be night and day, more of a placebo effect in my mind. |
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08-06-2015, 07:13 PM | #6 |
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08-06-2015, 10:53 PM | #7 |
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It may require aftermarket bump stops, but honestly the springs are just very weak, why have a subpar setup. Just peak in the wheel well and look at how stressed the coils are at static load. I would just swap them out for dinan.
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08-06-2015, 11:02 PM | #8 |
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Thanks for this post OP, I'm pretty set on not going with H&Rs anymore. I'm probably going to end up with dinan springs like you. I figure my suspension would be covered if anything were to happen.
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08-07-2015, 03:47 AM | #9 |
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The HR Springs for 220i might be different from 228i and 235i I guess, there are no Dinan in Germany. I was just wondering if it really so bad, I mean HR are quite professional suspension manufacturer worldwide and a lot of 2er installed those springs with M shocks and no issues after thousand of miles so far. No question that full setup with coils is better anyway, but for daily use I doubt it is worth it...
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08-07-2015, 04:50 PM | #11 |
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There seems to be some interest in this, so sometime next week I will take photos of stock, hr and Dinan spring compression.
I think when people see how weak the hr springs are they will be surprised. A picture will illustrate this much better. I did swap in the Dinan front springs today to see if they would work or if I would need to order coil overs, it looks promising, I do not have the bump stop kit yet from them, but there seems to be enough space. |
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08-07-2015, 05:09 PM | #12 |
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FWIW I have the H&R springs and I am happy with them. I don't notice any real harshness from them, and I haven't had any strut problems related to them. Also, as most of you know, I do track my car fairly frequently.
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08-07-2015, 06:57 PM | #13 | |
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I had 9 track days on the hr springs. It honestly did not feel bad. When I added in the m3 control arms it lowered the car another 1/2 inch so I started to investigate the front end some more. Problem is with or without the Lower control arms, you are basically running on a compressed bump stop, with a spring that can not hanle the load. This transmits a lot of stress to the suspension components and the shock top mounts or camber plates. Basically like hitting the suspension with a sledgehammer everytime the car bottoms out. None of this is visible because of the dust shield. The bump stops are meant to be part of the spring rate, but they are not meant to be compressed at static load. The suspension needs movement to work and the hr springs do not allow it. If you remove the bump stop, and set the car down there is maybe 1/2 of visible shock top on the hr springs when at static load, which is way way out of spec. In other words the car is not being supported by the springs but more by the bumpstop. That is not even under deflection when the load is multiplied. I only see this ending one way with the camber plates broken by the shock top or extreme premature wear on the shock and wheel bearings. Again, I have all three springs at my shop and will do the photos next week, but run the h and r springs at your own peril. |
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08-08-2015, 10:39 PM | #14 | |
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Just to ask, how did adding F8x LCA's "lower" the car? I have H&R springs in my 228i as well. It is highly recommended that you trim your stock bump stops. You are 100% correct that the bump stops are considered part of the spring rate, but nothing should be "damaged". I have multiple events on my car with H&R springs and haven't had any issue(s). Interested to see the different springs. If you have a spring dyno, that would be even better. |
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08-09-2015, 01:12 PM | #15 | |
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If you lengthen the LCA, you make the back triangle more squat, lowering the car ever so slightly. Adding negative camber shortens the virtual side from the inner LCA mount to the strut top, and so also slightly lowers the car. |
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08-19-2015, 03:19 PM | #16 |
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This hasn't been updated in a while, but I have run both Dinan and HR springs. Both Dinan and the HR springs caused a leak in the driver front strut. Each spring set was put on with a new strut, so the strut was not reused.
Next week I am having Koni sport yellows installed to alleviate the issue with the EDC struts. In general, even the BMW dealer local to me could not understand how the struts had come to leak with such a minimal change (1/2" on Dinan spring up front). Add to that the fact that I have never bottomed-out or done such extreme driving as regular track events. The one track event I did do was on the stock suspension. Will update more as the Koni's are installed with HR springs, but like a few others have mentioned - I have not had an issue with the HR springs themselves, only the struts. Previous models just seem to have more robust struts than some of today's BMWs?
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08-19-2015, 03:58 PM | #17 | |
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08-19-2015, 05:59 PM | #18 | |
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After a good cleaning, just watch the inside of the wheel for any small pools (about a dime size is what I got). If one forms, take off the wheel and check brake lines for any leaks. Then check the strut for any fluid coming out of the bottom (base of the spring) or the top.
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08-20-2015, 03:59 AM | #19 |
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Thanks for info, will have a look. Stupid is when I was looking for any feedback regards to spring, everyone was telling that HR are good with OEM M shocks, but now I read so much about bad experience and it brings me to thoughts why I didn't get the coilovers at the beginning to avoid double costs for install...
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08-20-2015, 12:16 PM | #21 |
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Yes, I am on EDC, standard on the M235s.
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08-20-2015, 04:14 PM | #22 |
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So is this the case for us drivers who track their M235s on HR or what? I put my M235 on HR springs a few months ago and am starting to worry reading this post!?!? My main concern is that I don't track my car or even autoX it... Its just a garage queen that I drive on the weekends so am I one to have to worry about this issue so early and prematurely?? Again I only drive it on the weekends for leisure...
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