Why Everyone Comparing M3/M4 to 911S instead of 911?

[CirrusSR22]

Originally Posted by Lups

That just means I'm not the worst no life in the history. Thanks!

huh?

[Lups]

Originally Posted by CirrusSR22

huh?

If you can remember those, you took the cake. don't take this badly, since I'm the resident no life here.

[CirrusSR22]

I don't quite understand what you're writing. Remember those reviews? Way back to September?

Every website/magazine out there did a C7 vs. 911S review. Not that hard to forget - that just happened 9 months ago.

[Schittenengitten]

The base is no slouch at all, very similar performance to e92 m3. With the S you not only get 50 more hp but other equipment optional on the base. One can find great deals on cpo 991S.

[Brosef]

there's no good reason to compare any 911 (base or S model) to the M3. One is a true sports car, the other is a very high-performance luxury sedan with room for four full-size adults plus luggage, the other is a 2-door sports car with room for no more than 1 passenger if you have a set of golf clubs.

when you consider the price differential, the comparison becomes even more absurd. I agree - if you should compare the M to the 911, it would rightfully be the base model to be even remotely fair, but even that is not enough. why does no one ever compare it to the Cayman? not only is that an even more purpose-built sports car, but it's closer on price (though it's still far more expensive, comparably equipped). the reason is that the Cayman loses in almost any measurable way with respect to performance.

anyways, my personal guess as to why they're so frequently compared is that the M3 used to be able to match (even sometimes best) the 911 in terms of performance. the e46 always gave the 996 a run for its money (and beat it in some ways). the e92 was faster than the 997.1 Carrera S. the mere fact that a car far cheaper with way more practicality can be nipping at the heals of a 911 is just flattery to the M. all that being said, the 991 is no longer within reach of the M. Nor should it be for what Porsche charges. we'll see though - maybe a ZCP car with an extra 40hp and better handling could go toe-to-toe with it.

-this is all coming from a former 997 C2S owner.

[Soliris]

Journalists never buy those cars, they just drive around.

Option Price list of the 991 is just insane, sorry.

If i equip a 991 Carrera S convertible to a similar degree, a Ferrari California T comes stock:

- carbon ceramic

- power upgrade to 430 horses (still far far away from the power you get in the Ferrari)

- make everything leather the Ferrari already comes covered in leather

- satellite Navigation, dual clutch etc etc etc...

... i will end around 170 000 €. For a Volkswagen Beetle. This is lunacy.

For this kind of money, i want the Ferrari badge on my car. For sure. For this kind of Money, i don't want to see five similar cars on my daily 2 kilometre drive to work
So i just ordered the California T.

BMW M3 on the other hand, is a perfect daily driver, which transports me and my wife and two big suitcases to the Airport for a two week Holiday. Which is fully usable for supermarket shopping etc.

The 991 is just not offering the "supercar" feel and prestige. Only you get a supercar price to pay for lol. And it does the daily job a lot more bad than the M3. I can see no use for this car...

[48Laws]

Uh..most supercars come equipped with far less amenities than the 991. The price is relative as Porsche is having no issues moving units. Remember...the 991 isnt cross-shopped with an STI, for example. The price doesn't disturb those who can afford it, generally speaking.

[Soliris]

Well i just moved on from Porsche to Ferrari, just because of Porsche pricing policy. Even electric foldable mirrors are a 300 € option here in Germany.
Heated seats ? 500€... Feels like bending me over, sorry.

I can not see one single ammenity this car comes with.
(no LED headlights, no carbon ceramics, no PDK... nothing...)

It is not about, what somebody can afford or not, but what he wants to afford :-) (And what is in the same, or close price range)

The average Porsche buyer here in Germany is a 57y old male conservative.
Those guys would never buy an M3 as well ;-)

Anyway, for me the M3/M4 is not a competition for Porsche or Ferrari, but an ADDITION to these cars. Sometimes you just need "more car" in order to get the daily life done.
If you not want to be bored while doing so, there's the M3 ;-)

(The average german Porsche buyer will choose a brown metallic S Class for his daily drives xD )

[48Laws]

And Ferrari's waiting list can be several years for one model and if you think Porsche is pricey I have no idea how you cannot think the same of Ferrari. Lol. Imagine receiving your car 18 months to 24 months after purchasing it? It's already old lol

[Soliris]

Ferrari options are about 90% not functional.
It is only about your personal taste, what can get pricey (carbon interior trim, two tone leather and things like that).

Carbon ceramic, dual clutch, LED lights, everything stock.
Sport exhaust you don't need :-)

I ordered my Cali T in March, delivery is mid july.
Usually the dealers order several cars in advance (my dealer ordered
3 California T) , and then phone their customers and offer those cars to them.

When you are a new customer, it might take more time. 458, California and F12 are not a big problem to get. Cars like the speciale might take more long, i don t know about that.

Not having every car immediateley available is a big advantage in my opinion.
After 2 years, the dealer took my California 30 back for 75% of its origin price.

Anyway, this is getting off topic.

Just wanted to add to this discussion, that i consider cars like a 911 or any other "exotic" or true sportscar more like toys. Not as a daily driver like the M3.
Comparison seems unfair to me...

[ncM]

C2S and F8x are natural competitors because a low mile, decently optioned 2012 C2S is currently within $10k of a new F8x with exec, 19s and leather, and you'll lose much of the benefit of that $10k in first year depreciation on the F8x. They are unique to the market in that they are both relatively light, have a rear seat for a smallish kid and are available with a MT.

In one sense, the 911 base becomes the natural competitor when some used F8x's hit the market and new markup over invoice settles down.

On the other hand, if you're not price limited, you may very well be willing to pay $20k more for 911 driving dynamics, feel, cache, whatever on the street even if they have the same raw performance on track.

[pkimM3r]

i didn't know we were in the business of comparing used prices vs new prices. so we can cross shop a used m3 with a brand new fucking Honda Accord (because those things are in the $40k's now new)

i think it makes the m3/4 even more notable being that it is being compared to cars out of its league.

also, i guess journalists are bored and just compare anything to anything now.

[Jockey]

I agree, this comparison is now getting really dumb.

You need to talk apples to apples:
new M4 is $64k
new 911 is $98k

That is an appreciable difference. And the base M4 still has more options already installed than ANY base Porsche.

[Audio Fan]

This thread peaked my curiosity, so I went to the P site and optioned out a 911S that is very comparable to the M4 that I have on order. I didn't get the CCB, but did opt for several options. The MSRP was around 78K for the M4. I got a little discount for being a repetitive customer, but nothing crazy as you would expect with this car at this time. The 911S hit $132K with compatible options. The S is $54K or 74% more than an M4. Stripped versus stripped give a delta of over $34K, which translates to 53% more. How are these even considered in the same category pricewise? This is like comparing a 911S with a Ferrari 458. The S should be a lot better ... but I'll bet it isn't much better in any measure and even less overall. Nothing against the 911S, but P should be worried that the M4 is even close. My guess is that it would come down to the driver, not the car, on any given track day. I feel even better now that I visited the configurators. And don't forget how miles depreciate the cars. The miles hit P harder than BMW, which translates to P not being very affordable as a DD.

[Schittenengitten]

Originally Posted by Jockey

I agree, this comparison is now getting really dumb.

You need to talk apples to apples:
new M4 is $64k
new 911 is $98k

That is an appreciable difference. And the base M4 still has more options already installed than ANY base Porsche.

If you are comparing only new cars then you have to limit your field, yes. Assuming we are limiting ourselves to pure base m4 of $64k with 0 options - good luck with that btw - what are the competitors in that price range? What do they come standard with that BMW doesn't? Base C7? - has leather and imitation stitched dash at what $57k? 350z? Don't like 2 seaters and want a coupe based on sedan? Mustang gt, camaro ss, challenger r/t, G37 coupe, cts-v coupe? 4 doors? Cts, ats, etc etc.

If you must keep a BMW and you're like the vast majority who lease, why not an M5?

There are PLENTY of cars to compare if you only want new.

What I do, and I know I know I'm an old fart who has no place in this brave new m3post (the old m3post sure was more civil), but when I shop for a car, I compare what I'm spending to what I could buy for the same price. There are plenty of used cars at $64k that are nice - Aston Martin, Maserati, F360, 997 turbo, cpo new style boxster/cayman s, C6 Z06.

Buy what you want, it doesn't matter to me, but there used to be on this forum a lot people who would seriously ask for, and receive good feedback on other cars. I find it amusing that so many of the new cars' buyers are so defensive and sad this new area of the forum has become so much like corvetteforum - "if it ain't a vette it ain't chit".

[Jackson51]

You can make the comparison on anything from price, practicality, options and/or power etc. For some people it may make sense to compare because of similar price of cars, for others it may make sense to compare because they have similar performance or even are within the same HP range - so its all personal.

The 350HP 991 is a serious car. Option all the performance options on the 350hp 911 (PDK, SPASM, PTV, SportChrono) and race a non optioned 991S (Manual) and you are in most likelihood winning that lapping event, or putting up similar lap times with equally skilled drivers.

It has been said that the PDCC (not available on the base 991) accounts for roughly a 4 second advantage around the ring and the extra 50HP adds about another ~6 seconds give or take. So if the official 991S time is 7:38 - you are looking at a car that is 7:48 capable with the right options.

And then you look at yourself and realize that you are neither a pro driver, nor do you drive your cars with wreck less abandon and the differences between cars become negligible.

So if you can get away from impressing others and basing your decision on what journalists say then the actual decision is easy. You pick that car that works best for you after you have driven them all.

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by Schittenengitten

If you are comparing only new cars then you have to limit your field, yes. Assuming we are limiting ourselves to pure base m4 of $64k with 0 options - good luck with that btw - what are the competitors in that price range? What do they come standard with that BMW doesn't?

Like you said, it depends on what you're shopping for. For my performance DD, it's only going to be new. For my Jeep that I drag skiing all the time, it'll be used.

The problem when you start comparing new to used cars is you start to bring in really differing set of metrics. For a buyer, that's fine to look at. But when you start looking at new model and compare it to another new model, comparing used prices to new prices is dumb. It skews the entire comparison.

[Schittenengitten]

Originally Posted by Jockey

Like you said, it depends on what you're shopping for. For my performance DD, it's only going to be new. For my Jeep that I drag skiing all the time, it'll be used.

The problem when you start comparing new to used cars is you start to bring in really differing set of metrics. For a buyer, that's fine to look at. But when you start looking at new model and compare it to another new model, comparing used prices to new prices is dumb. It skews the entire comparison.

Fair enough

[ncM]

Maybe I'm in the wrong thread. I'm not debating, I'm searching for a car. I don't car about N'Ring times or Pcar heritage, and I'm price insensitive as long as the value is there. I'm pining for a car with a backseat that has the fun factor of my earlier cars (8v 16v GTIs, MR2t, MZ3, MZ4), preferable with 0-60 under 5sec.

I'd like to hear what people who have lived with an M3 and a 991 have to say about the 991 AS A STREET CAR. Do/Don't really like the rear weight bias? Sketchy in the rain? Annoying, serious or rumored defects? Gear shift position awkward? Kids hate it because they get carsick in the cave? Too buttoned down to have fun with near the speed limit?

[Schittenengitten]

ncM - I've only had my 991S for a few weeks. It's a blast, press sport plus and get ready to grin like an idiot the whole time. Some of my favorite cars from the past were first gen MR2, rx7 turbo, 300zx turbo, g35 coupe and m3. It feels like a modern day blend of the MR2 and Z with the pull and glorious sounds of the m3. It's obviously not a v8, but still sounds great. It gets better gas mileage and is surprisingly affordable (relative to the m3).

As for rain, I don't know. Kids - mine is 12 and has only ridden in it twice.

Go to rennlist - water cooled - 991 forum and check "money2356 journal" he and Team Plutonium used to be on m3post all the time when they owned e92's. They have had their 991S' longer and with more mileage - better answer some of your questions. The thread has pics of other members with their kids in their cars, as well as their experiences with repairs/dealers/mods/weather, etc.

Good luck with whatever you choose.

[JustChris]

Originally Posted by Audio Fan

This thread peaked my curiosity, so I went to the P site and optioned out a 911S that is very comparable to the M4 that I have on order. I didn't get the CCB, but did opt for several options. The MSRP was around 78K for the M4. I got a little discount for being a repetitive customer, but nothing crazy as you would expect with this car at this time. The 911S hit $132K with compatible options. The S is $54K or 74% more than an M4. Stripped versus stripped give a delta of over $34K, which translates to 53% more. How are these even considered in the same category pricewise? This is like comparing a 911S with a Ferrari 458. The S should be a lot better ... but I'll bet it isn't much better in any measure and even less overall. Nothing against the 911S, but P should be worried that the M4 is even close. My guess is that it would come down to the driver, not the car, on any given track day. I feel even better now that I visited the configurators. And don't forget how miles depreciate the cars. The miles hit P harder than BMW, which translates to P not being very affordable as a DD.

Precisely this.

[Wolfinwolfsclothing]

Originally Posted by Audio Fan

This thread peaked my curiosity, so I went to the P site and optioned out a 911S that is very comparable to the M4 that I have on order. I didn't get the CCB, but did opt for several options. The MSRP was around 78K for the M4. I got a little discount for being a repetitive customer, but nothing crazy as you would expect with this car at this time. The 911S hit $132K with compatible options. The S is $54K or 74% more than an M4. Stripped versus stripped give a delta of over $34K, which translates to 53% more. How are these even considered in the same category pricewise? This is like comparing a 911S with a Ferrari 458. The S should be a lot better ... but I'll bet it isn't much better in any measure and even less overall. Nothing against the 911S, but P should be worried that the M4 is even close. My guess is that it would come down to the driver, not the car, on any given track day. I feel even better now that I visited the configurators. And don't forget how miles depreciate the cars. The miles hit P harder than BMW, which translates to P not being very affordable as a DD.

Given the Ring times we've seen (991S 13 seconds faster) the 991S will be/is a lot faster on track than the m4. Its better overall as we saw in the comparo posted last week and in any performance measure its going to be the better car.
The m3 only offers more practicality but not a better drive or performer.

Porsche has nothing to worry about, the 991S is basically an entry level 911 and the two are really not crossed shopped. Porsche is a lot more than just straight line speed. Go drive a 991S on the track and you wouldnt want to drive an m4 again. You wouldnt even want to drive an M3 GTS after being in a 911 on the track.

BMW should be worried that the Mustang is neck and neck with it and that Mercedes is clammering to pass them in the segment. Lexus is also close as well as Audi, so BMW has to worry about them. Theyre all nipping at BMW heels.

BMW at its best cant touch Porsche at its best. It can barely touch them at their "worst".