[mundo74]

Originally Posted by DarthColin

I think if you go to the zf website, and read about it, you'll see that it is a fairly sophisticated piece of machinery. There is no doubt that BMW chose this route due to economies of scale, less R&D costs; just less cost period. That's the way corporations work. I just test drove an M550, and if the M5 transmission is better that that, I'll be impressed.

I get what you are saying but.

sofistication: zfat>DCT>MT
driver engagement/feel: MT>DCT>zfat

numbers and specs don't tell the whole story
I have an f10 dct and an e70 zfat. The jerkiness on the zfat is worse than the dct. I understand it may be the e70 implementation but I downright hate that zf8 auto.

[josec70]

The question will be who hates the ZF8 enough not to buy the F90 M5 .... I'm on my 2nd F10 M5 and love DCT but will wait to pass judgement on the F90 M5 as a whole.

For the record, I'm a purist and disappointed with what ///M has come to represent ... slapping ///M's on several Non-///M cars is disappointing; it was only a matter of time before they followed MB-AMG in an effort to chase more profit.

Outside of the AWD, the F90 M5 feels like an uninspired refresh of the F10 M5. That, however, won't dissuade me from buying another one if it performs as advertised.

[phoenixbmwlife]

Originally Posted by mundo74

just the opposite. The zf8 is old technology and its not better than the dct it replaced.

You can argue that the v8 was a downgrade from the V10 also but it's doing just fine.

Regardless of the outcry I still believe it will be just fine in the end as history always repeats itself.
Cheers!

[nomoclutch]

I had a non-M e70 with the 8-speed and an e70 M with the 6-speed. The 8-speed in my F85 X5M is vastly better and close to the DCT in my F12. My guess is only due to the tunijng for the weight of the F85 are they not even closer. I suspect when we drive the F90 we'll find it's pretty damn close without the first gear shudder ...

[AndyT]

That ZF8 shifting looks a lot like my cousin's CLS63S which I drove from time to time.
Probably will judge when I test drive one but if it's the AMG-like shifting, that will be a disappointment.

[N & M]

Originally Posted by phoenixbmwlife

Every time a new M car comes out with a new technology the purists come out and cause a riot.

Remember when the E92 M3 was unveiled with a V8? So many people complained about it.
Remember when the F10 M5 lost the V10? So many people complained about that too.
And now the new M5 does not have a DCT gear box and it's happening again.

If history repeats itself and it always does this too will be just fine.

Most people hate change. I believe that the "purists" just want to stay with what they know best. Going to auto really bothered me in the beginning but then I had to consider the reality that this is a luxury car that needs to behave a certain way in day to day driving. Frankly; I am worried about the sportier lines like the even number Ms that should have DCT continue.

Also; and I think this is the major reason; if M (and the whole BMW) are now at a crossroads in terms of product substance and tech.

The future points to end of the combustion engine and its supporting peripherals and if it is to survive in the new era, resources have to be put into future technologies rather than continue to invest in exotic engines and gearboxes that have maybe a 10 year shelf life.

Till that time comes; I hope they can find a way to make the adaptations deliver the driving engagement M customers demand.

[EvenKeel]

Originally Posted by sterile stork

Rather considerable delay in up-shifts via the paddles observed in the video--I think that highlights the criticism perfectly.

You're looking for a reason to be critical.....and therefore reaching.

[mundo74]

Originally Posted by N & M

Most people hate change. I believe that the "purists" just want to stay with what they know best. Going to auto really bothered me in the beginning but then I had to consider the reality that this is a luxury car that needs to behave a certain way in day to day driving. Frankly; I am worried about the sportier lines like the even number Ms that should have DCT continue.

Also; and I think this is the major reason; if M (and the whole BMW) are now at a crossroads in terms of product substance and tech.

The future points to end of the combustion engine and its supporting peripherals and if it is to survive in the new era, resources have to be put into future technologies rather than continue to invest in exotic engines and gearboxes that have maybe a 10 year shelf life.

Till that time comes; I hope they can find a way to make the adaptations deliver the driving engagement M customers demand.

I daily drive my dct with no issues whatsoever. and if its not smooth enough then get a m550 or 550 or 540 or 530. once you cross to the m its should have some edginess. why get a m5 that drives identical to a 550i.

[sterile stork]

Originally Posted by EvenKeel

You're looking for a reason to be critical.....and therefore reaching.

By that flawed-logic I can just as easily (and without citation of evidence) claim that you're enabling a lesser performing model to wear the M badge. It may even be more popularly received

I am not a critic of this new chassis, nor am I the target demographic (the variety of vehicles in my possession may suggest this already.) What I am happy to do on this board is objectively examine the performance/state of new models that are enroute to market. I am quite eager to see how the new "M5" stacks up against the AWD titans already in the class, a new challenge for BMW indeed and we'll see how capable xDrive is What is certainly interesting already however is how close the front axle remains to the front edge of the bumper--I'm curious how the AWD drivetrain is laid out to accomplish that feat.

[BadBoostedBMWM3]

Originally Posted by Flying Ace

Agreed.

if you can notice the delay by eye, then the shifts are too slow. An eye blink is around 300 ms also the speed of gen 1 SMGs and current gen automatics. MB's performance MCT shifts in 100 ms in S and M mode.

DCTs/DSGs shift in 80 ms or less, it'll be really hard to "see" it lag for a DCT.

Originally Posted by Flying Ace

Agreed.

if you can notice the delay by eye, then the shifts are too slow. An eye blink is around 300 ms also the speed of gen 1 SMGs and current gen automatics. MB's performance MCT shifts in 100 ms in S and M mode.

DCTs/DSGs shift in 80 ms or less, it'll be really hard to "see" it lag for a DCT.

Good info...

So you are referring to the old e36 SMGs in Europe?


Also, what about Audi's? I swear my wife's q5 shifts quick.

[AhsanU]

Originally Posted by Munichm3

The thing is, the ZF isn't even an upgrade, you think BMW did this for an upgrade? BMW did this strictly so they can have the same transmission on their line up. It's less r&d for them. Also say goodbye to the manual as well.

One thing I liked about the DCT is how engaging it feels compared to the ZF 8 speed. One reason why I went BMW and not a c63 at the time was because how crap the gearbox was on the benz. The BMW with the DCT was outstanding for the price of the car. It has also shown itself to be bulletproof as well.

In the end, it's about BMW making more profits. They're a business, what can you expect? The main consumer market is the target, not the enthusiast. That's what they threw the m2 for.

This is flat out false in regards to why BMW went to a fully automatic ZF 8 speed transmission. While it can be argued that BMW saves some money in the R&D department, the truth is the DCT's just can't handle the torque these forced induction engines put out. Switching to an automatic just makes things better for casual M5 owners that want no jerkiness, and tuners that don't have to worry about clutch slippage at higher power. Besides, most M5 owners won't know the difference between a ZF automatic and a DCT, or can't, with enthusiasts being the likely exception.

What's this rubbish with BMW putting out the M2 just for money? Yes, they're a business, but have you driven an M2? Having driven every single M car since the E36 M3, I can confidently say that the F87 M2 is the spiritual successor to the E46 M3. It sounds great due to only one turbo, it feels smaller and more nimble than the F82, and is pretty good value. It's the best bang for the buck and offers serious performance. What on earth are you on about?

[Tony007]

Originally Posted by Mingwan

Why are people so hung up about the fact that the new M5 will not have a DCT? The 8 speed seems pretty damn quick to me. Dare I say, quicker than the DCT in the now older M5.

LMAO, that asshat in the first video shifted up to 4'th gear before he was even doing 60mph.

[mundo74]

Originally Posted by AhsanU

This is flat out false in regards to why BMW went to a fully automatic ZF 8 speed transmission. While it can be argued that BMW saves some money in the R&D department, the truth is the DCT's just can't handle the torque these forced induction engines put out. Switching to an automatic just makes things better for casual M5 owners that want no jerkiness, and tuners that don't have to worry about clutch slippage at higher power. Besides, most M5 owners won't know the difference between a ZF automatic and a DCT, or can't, with enthusiasts being the likely exception.

What's this rubbish with BMW putting out the M2 just for money? Yes, they're a business, but have you driven an M2? Having driven every single M car since the E36 M3, I can confidently say that the F87 M2 is the spiritual successor to the E46 M3. It sounds great due to only one turbo, it feels smaller and more nimble than the F82, and is pretty good value. It's the best bang for the buck and offers serious performance. What on earth are you on about?

I'm afraid that the Porsche PDK shot a hole through the "can't handle torque" fallacy.

[phil_]

Originally Posted by mundo74

I'm afraid that the Porsche PDK shot a hole through the "can't handle torque" fallacy.

And same goes from the DCT jerkiness. Porsche does it perfectly.

[stefan]

Prospective M5 buyers are upset about the ZF 8sp? Why? It's superior to DCT in almost every aspect. It's a huge, lumbering, AWD-option super sedan. The auto box makes complete sense over a DCT. And I do believe it is rated up to 770lb-ft torque as well or something crazy.

[Munichm3]

Originally Posted by AhsanU

This is flat out false in regards to why BMW went to a fully automatic ZF 8 speed transmission. While it can be argued that BMW saves some money in the R&D department, the truth is the DCT's just can't handle the torque these forced induction engines put out. Switching to an automatic just makes things better for casual M5 owners that want no jerkiness, and tuners that don't have to worry about clutch slippage at higher power. Besides, most M5 owners won't know the difference between a ZF automatic and a DCT, or can't, with enthusiasts being the likely exception.

What's this rubbish with BMW putting out the M2 just for money? Yes, they're a business, but have you driven an M2? Having driven every single M car since the E36 M3, I can confidently say that the F87 M2 is the spiritual successor to the E46 M3. It sounds great due to only one turbo, it feels smaller and more nimble than the F82, and is pretty good value. It's the best bang for the buck and offers serious performance. What on earth are you on about?

I've heard that rubbish about the DCT not being able to handle the "torque" look at Porsche and the PDK. Back to back you can launch the car. It's an incredible system, I suggest you try one.

I never went on the m2 being terrible in any way, I have driven quite a few and was going to have one on order. I was stating that it's the only true enthusiast car that BMW has produced out.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by sterile stork

By that flawed-logic I can just as easily (and without citation of evidence) claim that you're enabling a lesser performing model to wear the M badge. It may even be more popularly received

I am not a critic of this new chassis, nor am I the target demographic (the variety of vehicles in my possession may suggest this already.) What I am happy to do on this board is objectively examine the performance/state of new models that are enroute to market. I am quite eager to see how the new "M5" stacks up against the AWD titans already in the class, a new challenge for BMW indeed and we'll see how capable xDrive is What is certainly interesting already however is how close the front axle remains to the front edge of the bumper--I'm curious how the AWD drivetrain is laid out to accomplish that feat.

I'm pretty sure that the Xdrive layout is similar to existing layouts in other BMW's with Xdrive. The M5 has a 7mm longer wheelbase than the M550i Xdrive, so that implies no major difference in layout between the two cars.

Don't be surprised to see the same layout and some shared part numbers on the M5 as seen in this parts diagram for the G30 M550i (the large grey part in the middle of the illustration is the engine oil sump BTW)

[AhsanU]

Originally Posted by Munichm3

I've heard that rubbish about the DCT not being able to handle the "torque" look at Porsche and the PDK. Back to back you can launch the car. It's an incredible system, I suggest you try one.

I never went on the m2 being terrible in any way, I have driven quite a few and was going to have one on order. I was stating that it's the only true enthusiast car that BMW has produced out.

Porsche DCT =/= BMW DCT.

And even then, Dodson does supply clutch upgrades for the PDK, as it's needed for higher horsepower applications in the 991 Turbo S. The Turbo S also pushes 553 lb/ft of torque stock so.. we're not exactly talking that high up there in terms of tolerances. The S63 puts out that much torque at stock levels (thereabouts) and doesn't experience slippage. Again, I speak of upgraded cars here. In completely stock form, the DCT is fine, but most M5 owners are wanting a smooth throttle application, which a torque converter provides, and those that are looking to push the envelope can push harder without worrying about the gearbox in the form of a true automatic. If BMW were to pull this off with the M3/M4 there would be a riot.. but I don't think prospect M5 owners will really care. So again, my point is that this wasn't done simply for R&D saving purposes. There are good reasons to go for an automatic, not just money savings; albeit I'm sure that had something to do with it.

We're also not exactly talking about launching the car, as much as we're talking simply pushing the car and changing gears while under WoT. Many owners that are pushing the S63 in the F10 M5 and F12 M6 are experiencing clutch slippage after mild mods. A simple tune is enough to make the DCT in the M5/M6 start slipping.. not good IMO.

[ASAP]

Everyone here is sitting arguing and meanwhile Bentley put a DCT in the continental GT.... never thought I'd live in a world where the m5 is auto and the GT is a dct lol.

[EvenKeel]

Originally Posted by sterile stork

By that flawed-logic I can just as easily (and without citation of evidence) claim that you're enabling a lesser performing model to wear the M badge. It may even be more popularly received

I am not a critic of this new chassis, nor am I the target demographic (the variety of vehicles in my possession may suggest this already.) What I am happy to do on this board is objectively examine the performance/state of new models that are enroute to market. I am quite eager to see how the new "M5" stacks up against the AWD titans already in the class, a new challenge for BMW indeed and we'll see how capable xDrive is What is certainly interesting already however is how close the front axle remains to the front edge of the bumper--I'm curious how the AWD drivetrain is laid out to accomplish that feat.

Still doesn't support your assertion.

[M135iXdriver]

I owned a M135i xDrive for three years with the ZF8HP and I can't remeber one situation where I thought this thing would lag or be slow when shifting.

I remember reviews where people first thought they were driving a DCT due to the fast shifts - I could be wrong, but if I remember correctly Chris Harris was one of them who thought it felt as quick shifting as a DCT.

Now let's assume the ZF8HP in the new M5 shifts even faster - no need to worry, go test drive it... give it a chance.

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by Tony007

LMAO, that asshat in the first video shifted up to 4'th gear before he was even doing 60mph.

Care to say that to my face? It was intentional after all.