[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by oarnura

I would say warranty and emissions approval is a factor over brand name.

JB4 is not CARB approved and offers no Warranty protection for the car. Both Dinan and BMW MPPSK do both.

Lots of factors come into play including brand name, warranty, features, power, etc..

[oarnura]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

Lots of factors come into play including brand name, warranty, features, power, etc..

I got what you meant and deleted the message.

[paul e]

Originally Posted by roundel335

Nope, not correct. The MPE does not "drone". I've got one on my car (installed at port) and it's fine. It is not required to get the additional power, it's just part of a package. You can't buy just the power kit any more like I did for my 2013 335i - it now is bundled with the exhaust for the B58-engined cars. The exhaust makes very little difference in power, as it's only an axle-back muffler.

You don't seem to have a 340 - at least it's not listed - and numerous reports of highway drone with MPPSK here for the 340. Plus I read here that BMW got most of its power from the exhaust mod, so not sure what is going on now. It seems though that the MPE and the MPPSK are quite different in execution.

[oarnura]

Originally Posted by paul e

You don't seem to have a 340 - at least it's not listed - and numerous reports of highway drone with MPPSK here for the 340. Plus I read here that BMW got most of its power from the exhaust mod, so not sure what is going on now. It seems though that the MPE and the MPPSK are quite different in execution.

The MPPSK doesn't drone on the 340i all the time. There are very specific circumstances that cause it to drone. Sport mode on the drivetrain and cruising in 8th gear below 2K RPM.

Put it in comfort mode or switch to 7th gear and there is no drone, atleast not the bassy one you get in Sports and 8th. If you have the 6MT you will not experience RPMs in that range while cruising at HWY speeds.

MPPSK comes with a engine tune which is what gives it Power gains. I doubt the exhaust mod will five it 35HP and 40 LBft power gains from stock.

[insanecoder]

I read a while ago MPPSk was primarily getting its gains via reduced back pressure in the catback and alil off the intake upgrade..essentially lettin it breathe unobstructed front to back. The ECU reprogramming was to improve throttle response.. didnt sound like much of an ECU tune to me..

[RoundelM3]

Originally Posted by paul e

You don't seem to have a 340 - at least it's not listed - and numerous reports of highway drone with MPPSK here for the 340. Plus I read here that BMW got most of its power from the exhaust mod, so not sure what is going on now. It seems though that the MPE and the MPPSK are quite different in execution.

No, I don't have a 340, but the MPE doesn't produce any real power gain either for the 340 or 335. It's the updated software in the MPPSK that produces the increase. There isn't an axle-back exhaust system on the planet that will gain 35HP from either the N55 or B58 engine.

[RoundelM3]

Originally Posted by insanecoder

I read a while ago MPPSk was primarily getting its gains via reduced back pressure in the catback and alil off the intake upgrade..essentially lettin it breathe unobstructed front to back. The ECU reprogramming was to improve throttle response.. didnt sound like much of an ECU tune to me..

Completely inaccurate. There is no way to gain 35 HP or whatever the claimed HP increase is from a small opening in the lower intake box and a higher-flow muffler. Improved throttle response is already present in Sport mode, so the MPPSK does nothing there. The software is a mild tune that increases boost and fuel/ignition mapping plus the exhaust "burble" on overrun. I'm mystified where people are getting this totally illogical and incorrect information about an exhaust and an intake adding that much power.

[paul e]

Originally Posted by roundel335

Completely inaccurate. There is no way to gain 35 HP or whatever the claimed HP increase is from a small opening in the lower intake box and a higher-flow muffler. Improved throttle response is already present in Sport mode, so the MPPSK does nothing there. The software is a mild tune that increases boost and fuel/ignition mapping plus the exhaust "burble" on overrun. I'm mystified where people are getting this totally illogical and incorrect information about an exhaust and an intake adding that much power.

Perhaps from the official BMW release?…

A: The power kit now only comes bundled with the M Performance Exhaust since they work in tandem. The stock exhaust has too much back pressure to work with the higher flow of the new power kit, so the 340i M Performance Exhaust has reduced back pressure to work with the remapped ECU of the power kit.

There's two ways to increase power - intake more air, or reduce back pressure allowing for faster air exit. With the previous MPPK (for the N55 engine) we went the route of more air intake, but for the 340i (B58 engine) we modified the the exhaust system to reduce back pressure and allow the air to exit the car faster, which together with the modified ECU, results in more power.

This was pulled from
http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1304356

[xlover]

It is worth noting the exhaust in the mppsk is a full cat back design that is unique to the mppsk. It is NOT the same as the m performance exhaust which is available standalone.

The exhaust in the mppsk also fully integrates with the car and transforms to a user selectable flap exhaust much like other brands offer (think jaguar f type, corvette) where in comfort mode there is a different tone and volume than sport mode. While there is a flap in the stock exhaust it is not as significant a difference between modes.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Agree no drone. Also agree they are expensive because they are a tune with an insurance policy attached. If you want a real power upgrade for the lowest $ per horsepower JB4 is the only way to go.

[oarnura]

Originally Posted by paul e

Perhaps from the official BMW release?…

A: The power kit now only comes bundled with the M Performance Exhaust since they work in tandem. The stock exhaust has too much back pressure to work with the higher flow of the new power kit, so the 340i M Performance Exhaust has reduced back pressure to work with the remapped ECU of the power kit.

There's two ways to increase power - intake more air, or reduce back pressure allowing for faster air exit. With the previous MPPK (for the N55 engine) we went the route of more air intake, but for the 340i (B58 engine) we modified the the exhaust system to reduce back pressure and allow the air to exit the car faster, which together with the modified ECU, results in more power.

This was pulled from
http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1304356

How are they limiting the torque increase on manual cars then? The exhaust is the same and the engine is the same and the factory rated output is the same for AT and MT..

Explain how the exhaust can produce 35+ hp 40 lb ft+ on an AT car and less torque (25+ lb ft) with the same HP gain on a MT car?

The ECU tune is providing the power improvements by increasing boost etc and not the exhaust!

[Beek]

Originally Posted by oarnura

How are they limiting the torque increase on manual cars then? The exhaust is the same and the engine is the same and the factory rated output is the same for AT and MT..

Explain how the exhaust can produce 35+ hp 40 lb ft+ on an AT car and less torque (25+ lb ft) with the same HP gain on a MT car?

The ECU tune is providing the power improvements by increasing boost etc and not the exhaust!

Perhaps ... different coding? In any case I can't see how you can argue with BMW's own explaination.

[oarnura]

Originally Posted by Beek

Perhaps ... different coding? In any case I can't see how you can argue with BMW's own explaination.

BMW's explanation doesn't say all the power gains come from the exhaust and the ECU tuning is only for throttle response. Where does it say that?

If that were true every free flowing after market exhaust will provide MPPSK levels of power gains.

It says the exhaust is coupled with the ECU tuning.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

FWIW With the 435(late) system BMW Canada used to break the power upgrade into two parts. 335HP with the tune & 342HP with the tune + exhaust.

All the exhaust systems are pretty light on how much power they will deliver. The only big gain in the exhaust is from catless downpipes. There is not much to be gained in the rest of the system outside of good sounds.

With BMW its basic marketing 101 they are now forcing you to buy the MPE to get the MPPK as opposed to providing two separate options.

IIRC the base Stingray is 455HP. The Z51 & Grand Sport with the special exhaust is 460hp.

Edit: was looking at a dyno of the cat back system on the M4 414whp to 421whp. 7whp for only $4000.

[Beek]

Originally Posted by oarnura

BMW's explanation doesn't say all the power gains come from the exhaust and the ECU tuning is only for throttle response. Where does it say that?

If that were true every free flowing after market exhaust will provide MPPSK levels of power gains.

It says the exhaust is coupled with the ECU tuning.

Where did I say otherwise?

In any case here is what BMW said:
There's two ways to increase power - intake more air, or reduce back pressure allowing for faster air exit. With the previous MPPK (for the N55 engine) we went the route of more air intake, but for the 340i (B58 engine) we modified the the exhaust system to reduce back pressure and allow the air to exit the car faster, which together with the modified ECU, results in more power.

[oarnura]

Originally Posted by Beek

Where did I say otherwise?

In any case here is what BMW said:
There's two ways to increase power - intake more air, or reduce back pressure allowing for faster air exit. With the previous MPPK (for the N55 engine) we went the route of more air intake, but for the 340i (B58 engine) we modified the the exhaust system to reduce back pressure and allow the air to exit the car faster, which together with the modified ECU, results in more power.

You didn't but the people I responded to did.

Originally Posted by paul e

You don't seem to have a 340 - at least it's not listed - and numerous reports of highway drone with MPPSK here for the 340. Plus I read here that BMW got most of its power from the exhaust mod, so not sure what is going on now. It seems though that the MPE and the MPPSK are quite different in execution.

Originally Posted by insanecoder

I read a while ago MPPSk was primarily getting its gains via reduced back pressure in the catback and alil off the intake upgrade..essentially lettin it breathe unobstructed front to back. The ECU reprogramming was to improve throttle response.. didnt sound like much of an ECU tune to me..

You asked me why I was disagreeing with what BMW said.

The hypothesis is that most of the power gains come from the exhaust and not the ECU tune. The evidence presented is that BMW said so.

http://www.awe-tuning.com/awe-bmw-f3...i-440i-exhaust

This is a straight through exhaust which reduces back pressure it provides a 9 HP and 11 lb ft of torque gain.

So it is clear that while the reduce back pressure exhaust in the MPPSK is responsible for some HP gains it can't be responsible for most of the gains

I'll reiterate what BMW said:

With the previous MPPK (for the N55 engine) we went the route of more air intake,but for the 340i (B58 engine) we modified the the exhaust system to reduce back pressure and allow the air to exit the car faster, which together with the modified ECU, results in more power.

The MPPK for the N55 came with a new intake. The B58 they decided to modify the exhaust instead. Both of them come with engine tunes and they both have similar power gains. But crucially they both have engine tunes.

Tell me how that statement suggests what insanecoder and paul e are claiming.

[RoundelM3]

Originally Posted by paul e

Perhaps from the official BMW release?…

A: The power kit now only comes bundled with the M Performance Exhaust since they work in tandem. The stock exhaust has too much back pressure to work with the higher flow of the new power kit, so the 340i M Performance Exhaust has reduced back pressure to work with the remapped ECU of the power kit.

There's two ways to increase power - intake more air, or reduce back pressure allowing for faster air exit. With the previous MPPK (for the N55 engine) we went the route of more air intake, but for the 340i (B58 engine) we modified the the exhaust system to reduce back pressure and allow the air to exit the car faster, which together with the modified ECU, results in more power.

This was pulled from
http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1304356

Doesn't make it correct. First, there was no increase in air intake with the MPPK for the N55. There is a small opening in the lower airbox that makes more intake sound, and does not in any way increase the amount of airflow. The higher-flow exhaust does help with allowing the turbo to spool faster and push exhaust gases (not just "air") out. But without the increases in boost and fuel/ignition maps, there's no significant increase in power.

In the E46 ZHP, additional power was gained by more aggressive camshaft profiles, which is another way of increasing engine breathing (also helped by VANOS, and in the case of valve lift, Valvetronic). Intake and exhaust ports can be made larger and polished to increase airflow. But with forced-induction engines, which effectively increases the compression ratio, altering the amount of boost and fuel and ignition timing is where the majority of power is made. The stock intake on the N55 and B58 is not restrictive, so aside from keeping the air temp as low as possible, there isn't that much to be gained from any modifications.

As far as the cat-back exhaust, you might gain 5-10 HP at peak RPM at most over the stock unit. Removing or reducing the density of the catalytic converters will make a larger difference, but only if there is additional engine tuning to take advantage of the increased flow. So regardless of whatever article these quotes are coming from, the engine tuning is where the power gains are, not from a bolt-on exhaust system.

[kpgray]

Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory

FWIW With the 435(late) system BMW Canada used to break the power upgrade into two parts. 335HP with the tune & 342HP with the tune + exhaust.

All the exhaust systems are pretty light on how much power they will deliver. The only big gain in the exhaust is from catless downpipes...

This

Originally Posted by roundel335

...
As far as the cat-back exhaust, you might gain 5-10 HP at peak RPM at most over the stock unit. Removing or reducing the density of the catalytic converters will make a larger difference, but only if there is additional engine tuning to take advantage of the increased flow. So regardless of whatever article these quotes are coming from, the engine tuning is where the power gains are, not from a bolt-on exhaust system.

And This

The MPE reduces back pressure slightly, on a 335i even Dinan only claims 6 HP from their exhaust, BMW claims 6-7 HP. The mid-pipe installations do not even mention HP gains, just lighter by removing the mid-muffler and using lighter materials. Intake gains are minimal from the kit's lower restrictive air inlet box. Again Dinan claims a max 10 HP gain from their inlet. That being said, the inlet and exhaust together cannot provide 35 HP gains, however they do provide the support for the kit's program and together, the program's increased turbo boost allows greater air flow in and out of engine, or 35 HP gains.

[Beek]

Originally Posted by oarnura

You didn't but the people I responded to did.

You asked me why I was disagreeing with what BMW said.

The hypothesis is that most of the power gains come from the exhaust and not the ECU tune. The evidence presented is that BMW said so.

http://www.awe-tuning.com/awe-bmw-f3...i-440i-exhaust

This is a straight through exhaust which reduces back pressure it provides a 9 HP and 11 lb ft of torque gain.

So it is clear that while the reduce back pressure exhaust in the MPPSK is responsible for some HP gains it can't be responsible for most of the gains

I'll reiterate what BMW said:

With the previous MPPK (for the N55 engine) we went the route of more air intake,but for the 340i (B58 engine) we modified the the exhaust system to reduce back pressure and allow the air to exit the car faster, which together with the modified ECU, results in more power.

The MPPK for the N55 came with a new intake. The B58 they decided to modify the exhaust instead. Both of them come with engine tunes and they both have similar power gains. But crucially they both have engine tunes.

Tell me how that statement suggests what insanecoder and paul e are claiming.

I'm pretty much in agreement with you, I don't think MOST of the power gains are from the exhaust and I also don't think that is what BMW said. That's why I quoted what BMW actually said which states the power gains are a combination of the exhaust and the tune. I'll leave it to Insanecoder and Paul e to defend their posts, I'm just trying to keeps the facts stated by the manufacturer the basis for this discussion.

[Big Nodge]

Obviously most of the MPPSK power gains come from the tune. But a cat-back exhaust system will allows you to push the turbo a little harder. This is why the MPPSK version of the Dinan stage 1 will be tuned differently and have slightly higher hp/tq figures, as hinted by Dinan in the release thread. Down the road they will probably release a carbon fiber intake as well, at which point they'll release an MPPSK stage 2 version for a couple hundred $ more and a little more power still. None of this is particularly controversial.

[bimmer456]

I want to see a drag race between the dinan stage 1 and mppsk to settle this once and for all. How well does the 8 speed handle the power and is this covered by dinan. Also I have the extended warranty to 100 k how does this affect the dinan and BMW warranty do I have to pay additional to extended to 100 k for both dinan and BMW in addition to what I already paid to extend warranty?

[Versipellis]

Originally Posted by bimmer456

I want to see a drag race between the dinan stage 1 and mppsk to settle this once and for all. How well does the 8 speed handle the power and is this covered by dinan. Also I have the extended warranty to 100 k how does this affect the dinan and BMW warranty do I have to pay additional to extended to 100 k for both dinan and BMW in addition to what I already paid to extend warranty?

Doesn't the Dinan Tune stack on top of the MPPSK? Why not just get both?