[cfm56d7b]

Boeing 737 Max was a response to Airbus A320neo.

While A320neo was able to offer customer airlines 15% less fuel consumption, Boeing 737 MAX initially delivered only 10-12% reduction of fuel. In short - the inability to meet or exceed A320neo fuel efficiency targets became the first milestones of poor decisions to follow.

The design of Boeing 737 Max evolved, further reducing fuel consumption to 14.5% and later delivering additional 1-1.5% with further changes.

Boeing 737 MAX features LEAP-1B engines, which decrease the fuel consumption by 10-12%. That's where the majority of fuel efficiency savings come from.

But - LEAP-1B engines are not balanced towards the front of the aircraft due to the extra weight.

The rest is a tragic history because Boeing decided to use Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System or MCAS to apply input at specific aircraft pitch events.

[tturedraider]

It’s a little amusing to read y’all’s assessment of the 737. Southwest Airlines is probably the most successful airline in the United States and they only operate 737s. Over 800 of them. That’s all they have ever used. They are probably the only airline that didn’t have to be rescued financially following 9/11. This year will be their 57th year of operation. In those 57 years they have not had a single fatal crash. They’ve never had a real crash at all. They have had two fatalities in 57 years. In 2018 they had an uncontained engine failure that caused shrapnel to strike a passenger window which then exploded and a woman was partially sucked out of the plane and she died. That’s the only inflight fatality they have ever had. In 2005 a plane slid off the end of the runway in Chicago in a snowstorm and went through a perimeter fence and struck a passing car killing a little boy who was a passenger in the car. Other than those tragic events they have had a total of six additional incidents in 67 years. They had one other plane that didn’t get stopped before the end of the runway. They had one time where the front landing gear collapsed. They’ve had three instances where cabin pressure was lost and an emergency landing was required. And in 2000 they had a young man with drugs in his system storm the cockpit and eight passengers subdued him, but in their zeal to restrain him he actually suffocated and died.

It’s probably worth mentioning Southwest doesn’t use the Max 9. They currently have 817 737s in their fleet and 49 on order. The planes range from the 737-700 to the 737 Max 8. The average age is eleven years and their oldest plane still in service is nineteen years old.

[RobUK]

One has to assume that each faulty 737 Max 9 aircraft was signed off as being completed to the manufacturer's standard when it left the factory? So the issue seems to be that whatever quality control or certification process goes on at Boeing during assembly is not working properly, with planes leaving the factory with latent defects.

Understand Alaska Airlines are not alone in haviing this problem as United Airlines have reported finding loose fasteners on multiple 737 Max 9 aircraft inspections since this came to light.

Also, multiple air-pressurisation fail warnings being effectively ignored before the door plug blew off this particular aircraft, with "Well just don't fly this plane over water" does not inspire confidence.

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by RobUK

One has to assume that each faulty 737 Max 9 aircraft was signed off as being completed to the manufacturer's standard when it left the factory? So the issue seems to be that whatever quality control or certification process goes on at Boeing during assembly is not working properly, with planes leaving the factory with latent defects.

Understand Alaska Airlines are not alone in haviing this problem as United Airlines have reported finding loose fasteners on multiple 737 Max 9 aircraft inspections since this came to light.

Also, multiple air-pressurisation fail warnings being effectively ignored before the door plug blew off this particular aircraft, with "Well just don't fly this plane over water" does not inspire confidence.

It does seem to be a problem isolated to the Max 9. Apparently these door plugs have been in use for over a decade with no previous issues. The Max 9 fuselage is “outsourced” and built by a third company, Spirit AreoSystems. This is the first I’ve ever heard of Boeing not building their own fuselages.

[Watsey]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

It’s a little amusing to read y’all’s assessment of the 737. Southwest Airlines is probably the most successful airline in the United States and they only operate 737s. Over 800 of them. That’s all they have ever used. They are probably the only airline that didn’t have to be rescued financially following 9/11. This year will be their 67th year of operation. In those 67 years they have not had a single fatal crash. They’ve never had a real crash at all. They have had two fatalities in 67 years. In 2018 they had an uncontained engine failure that caused shrapnel to strike a passenger window which then exploded and a woman was partially sucked out of the plane and she died. That’s the only inflight fatality they have ever had. In 2005 a plane slid off the end of the runway in Chicago in a snowstorm and went through a perimeter fence and struck a passing car killing a little boy who was a passenger in the car. Other than those tragic events they have had a total of six additional incidents in 67 years. They had one other plane that didn’t get stopped before the end of the runway. They had one time where the front landing gear collapsed. They’ve had three instances where cabin pressure was lost and an emergency landing was required. And in 2000 they had a young man with drugs in his system storm the cockpit and eight passengers subdued him, but in their zeal to restrain him he actually suffocated and died.

It’s probably worth mentioning Southwest doesn’t use the Max 9. They currently have 817 737s in their fleet and 49 on order. The planes range from the 737-700 to the 737 Max 8. The average age is eleven years and their oldest plane still in service is nineteen years old.

Be amused, it's your prerogative.

I think you'd have experienced a different emotion if you were a passenger on Lion Air flight 610, Ethiopian Airlines flight 302, or the recent Alaska Airlines flight 1282.

According to Wiki "As of October 2023, there have been a total of 504 aviation accidents and incidents involving all 737 aircraft,[1] including 219 hull losses resulting in a total of 5,717 fatalities.[2][3]"

Also from Wiki : "The following is a list of accidents and incidents involving the Airbus A320 family and Airbus A320neo family of jet airliners. As of January 2024, 180 aviation accidents and incidents have occurred,[1] including 38 hull loss accidents,[2] and a total of 1505 fatalities in 17 fatal accidents.[3] Through 2015, the Airbus A320 family has experienced 0.12 fatal hull-loss accidents for every million takeoffs, and 0.26 total hull-loss accidents for every million takeoffs; one of the lowest fatality rates of any airliner.[4]"

There's only one 'winner' here, and it isn't Boeing.

There was one piece of text in the Wiki page for the Airbus a320 that caught my eye..."On 2 February 2016, Daallo Airlines Flight 159, an Airbus A321-111 registered as SX-BHS, suffered an in-flight explosion five minutes after takeoff, injuring two passengers; the explosion blew a hole in the fuselage, causing a passenger to fall out of the plane. The passenger's severely burnt body was found on the ground in the village of Dhiiqaaley near Balad, Somalia. The aircraft returned to Mogadishu and was able to land safely. Investigators determined that explosion was caused by a suicide bomber who detonated explosives. The bomber was the same passenger who fell out of the aircraft.[118]"

Now, that did amuse me. Send that person a Darwin Award.

[RobUK]

I know it feels like kicking a dog when it's down when we talk about the Boeing 737 Max but this video is certainly worth a listen.

[SimonBMW1]

Never knew boeing were so bad, Always preferred there planes over airbus.
The 777 and 747 were amazing tbh. Been on airbus 1350 and a380 didnt like them.

The 737 max 10 is testing too. and the 777x

[j.s.]

If accurate, pretty damming situation at Boeing
https://www.airliners.net/forum/view...3585#p24129017

[Watsey]

Initial findings by the US National Transport Safety Board are that four of the bolts that connect the door plug to the fuselage were missing.

I wonder how many other safety-critical components in the 737 Max aren’t actually joined together adequately.

From the BBC…”Prior to the Alaska Airlines incident, there had been other serious problems, including manufacturing defects affecting key parts of the planes, as well as a part protecting the central fuel tank against lightning strikes. Testifying before US lawmakers today, the head of the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), Mike Whitaker said inspections of 737 Max aircraft had shown that "the quality system issues at Boeing were unacceptable and require further scrutiny".

This updated aircraft is a death trap.

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by Watsey

Initial findings by the US National Transport Safety Board are that four of the bolts that connect the door plug to the fuselage were missing.

I wonder how many other safety-critical components in the 737 Max aren’t actually joined together adequately.

From the BBC…”Prior to the Alaska Airlines incident, there had been other serious problems, including manufacturing defects affecting key parts of the planes, as well as a part protecting the central fuel tank against lightning strikes. Testifying before US lawmakers today, the head of the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), Mike Whitaker said inspections of 737 Max aircraft had shown that "the quality system issues at Boeing were unacceptable and require further scrutiny".

This updated aircraft is a death trap.

The greed at Boeing has been shown to be off the scale. Even after the Max disasters they are still just rushing production to keep the cash flowing.

Having a 1960s throwback with 21st century bolt ons is a horrible solution. But beyond that, the whole ongoing saga puts me off any Boeing planes. They can't get their latest bodge (777x) into production, years behind schedule. Who can possibly have faith that, once they get the latest frankenstein viable, they will resist the urge to throw them together as quickly as possible to start recouping the design/pre-prod cost overruns.

And yet because we are all too tight to spend an extra tenner on a long haul flight, the cost race to the bottom means the incredible and comfortable plane that is the A380 is long out of production.

[isleaiw1]

sadly drawn to this thread with 17 hours on planes this week. Although funnily enough I am way more bothered about the 9 passenger cessna for leg 1 than whatever I'm given for legs 2 and 3....

I wont look what I am on until I get off at Heathrow after the first island hop, ignorance is sometimes bliss...

[Watsey]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

The greed at Boeing has been shown to be off the scale. Even after the Max disasters they are still just rushing production to keep the cash flowing.

Having a 1960s throwback with 21st century bolt ons is a horrible solution. But beyond that, the whole ongoing saga puts me off any Boeing planes. They can't get their latest bodge (777x) into production, years behind schedule. Who can possibly have faith that, once they get the latest frankenstein viable, they will resist the urge to throw them together as quickly as possible to start recouping the design/pre-prod cost overruns.

And yet because we are all too tight to spend an extra tenner on a long haul flight, the cost race to the bottom means the incredible and comfortable plane that is the A380 is long out of production.

You’re absolutely right. Boeing’s problems go far beyond the sham that is the 737 Max and, based on its track record, recovering losses and chasing profits will very likely be prioritised ahead of quality and safety.

Boeing used to be the aircraft manufacturer of choice for so many people, but its total disregard for its ultimate customers means I’ll avoid it like the plague.

[1 AKY]

.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68534703

[TodmordenLad]

There was a "technical problem" yesterday on a LATAM airlines Boeing 787 (Dreamliner?) bound for NZ, which was widely reported.

[Watsey]

Originally Posted by TodmordenLad

There was a "technical problem" yesterday on a LATAM airlines Boeing 787 (Dreamliner?) bound for NZ, which was widely reported.

50 injured, one seriously, several head wounds, blood on the ceiling, and the airline is being tight-lipped about the cause of the sudden and aggressive descent due to the technical issue.

This smacks of MCAS once again.

[TodmordenLad]

Originally Posted by Watsey

50 injured, one seriously, several head wounds, blood on the ceiling, and the airline is being tight-lipped about the cause of the sudden and aggressive descent due to the technical issue.

This smacks of MCAS once again.

Authorities in New Zealand have seized the black boxes.

[SimonBMW1]

Boeing used to be so good.
the 747 And 777 have such a good record.
Things did go downhill after the 787, the battery issues etc.

[Watsey]

I’ve just read that the pilot stated that he lost control of the plane and that the instruments went blank.

WTAF is going on at Boeing ? I’d expect control systems to have triple redundancy, but it seems they can just glitch and start to fall from the sky.

[TurboWeasel]

I used to love air travel, but the last few flights have made me feel anxious because of slipping standards, cost cutting, more and more people flying etc etc.

I will definitely be swerving Boeing planes if possible, but is this going to be another Dieselgate where Boeing get busted first, then others will follow?

[Watsey]

And so it continues…

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-68584134

Not as serious as an entire section of fuselage blowing out, but I’d rather not be on a plane where any of the bits fall off.

[simonslj1]

No one can be a lover of Boeing these days but I don't think you can chalk this one down to them. The aircraft involved was a 737-800 and was delivered to Continental Airlines in 1998 which makes it < > 26 years old - one of the earliest "Next Generation" 737's delivered. Looking at some photos of the area where the panel came off it looked as though the aircraft needed a bit of TLC! So a maintenance issue not a design/manufacturing one. BTW the 787 blank screen thing looks as though it was the pilots seat that moved......! Cheers Si

[TodmordenLad]

BBC News - Boeing: How much trouble is the company in?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68573686