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      03-20-2019, 09:06 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
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Originally Posted by Penguino View Post
A3 = FWD
CLA = FWD

I'm wondering if BMW's logic is to imitate its competitors instead of differentiate? Maybe they know this market is not for enthusiasts but more for entry level customers that aspire to drive a luxury brand and can't afford a $50k 328.

Still sadden to see such a strong branding little by little be diluted into something with very little differentiation.
I remember around 2010-2011 some article broke stating that like 80-90% of 1-series customers didn't know their car was RWD. This was an enthusiast-dedicated vehicle btw.

It's been nearly a decade later and needless to say, people care about tech and comfort even more now. And thanks to Instagram culture the need to show off a badge is even bigger too.

For every 1 dude/gal like us there's probably 99 who don't give a shit how the car drives.
Not knowing it was does not mean you can't tell the driving dynamics will be different. Torque steering, understeer, etc are very present in high torque FWD platform and it's not something that's desirable in a performance platform.
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      03-20-2019, 09:10 PM   #90
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This is the fight I've had for the last decade. My M Coupe wasn't kid friendly, the E91 and F31 were too large, heavy and saddled with only the base engine and the F31 had awd and an automatic too. The sedans were boring and the coupes had rear windows that didn't open, rendering them useless for my dog. We didn't get the five door hatch. The convertibles had a stupid, heavy hardtop.

So I've had other brands. First a Mazda 3. Then a couple of GTIs. Fwd isn't the devil, it's actually more fun than a heavy, boring, one wheel drive 3er that the wife parked in the garage for a while.

There's a chance that BMW actually knows what it's doing here. As noted, they've actually done a nice job with Mini dynamics and applying that to a small sedan might actually work well. Anything is better than the F series cars, even a fwd "coupe."
I agree that FWD isn't the devil but it just cannot match a RWD car by its very nature. I'm sure BMW's entry will be more fun than the very boring A3 and A/CLA, but it's still disappointing.

And I agree the F-chassis cars sucked nuts.
There's a point of rwd diminishing returns though that is keyed to weight, wheelbase and traction available. I greatly prefer small, light, tossable cars with a manual. A fwd car that fits those parameters is often more fun than a rwd one that misses one, two or all of those. My high school CRX Si was always more fun than my parents 560SL/SEL/SEC and 500 SL's. Snoozefest, glorified taxis.

Of course a similarly sized rwd car will usually be more enjoyable than a similarly sized fwd or awd car, but when smallish rwd cars aren't available in a class, I'm willing to defect to pullers.
We are not talking about a quid pro quo here. BMW can still make a RWD, light, powerful, manual platform, AKA the 235i and in a sedan form and it would have sold a lot better than the couple-only 2-series.

Do you think the A3 and the CLA sell because they are AWD, lightweight, fun cars? Maybe yes, but primarily it's because they are sedans.

A 2-series sedan (1-Series) platform with a B58 and RWD platform will be killer.

At least we know we'll have an Xdrive version. That should be a fun car.
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      03-20-2019, 09:16 PM   #91
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Sorry BMW ... you took far too long to come to market, and now that you have, it's a copycat that has no identity.
But in order to complete, you must copy. A rear drive sedan would be out of place in the market for small sedans. Space and price point take precedence over unique driving dynamics, hence fwd.
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      03-20-2019, 09:30 PM   #92
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can be a nice car though.. probably better than 4 GC..
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      03-20-2019, 09:33 PM   #93
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The distinctive "hofmeister kink" is slowly dying... everything looks like any Kia, Hyndai, Toyota, Lexus, ....
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      03-20-2019, 09:43 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penguino View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
This is the fight I've had for the last decade. My M Coupe wasn't kid friendly, the E91 and F31 were too large, heavy and saddled with only the base engine and the F31 had awd and an automatic too. The sedans were boring and the coupes had rear windows that didn't open, rendering them useless for my dog. We didn't get the five door hatch. The convertibles had a stupid, heavy hardtop.

So I've had other brands. First a Mazda 3. Then a couple of GTIs. Fwd isn't the devil, it's actually more fun than a heavy, boring, one wheel drive 3er that the wife parked in the garage for a while.

There's a chance that BMW actually knows what it's doing here. As noted, they've actually done a nice job with Mini dynamics and applying that to a small sedan might actually work well. Anything is better than the F series cars, even a fwd "coupe."
I agree that FWD isn't the devil but it just cannot match a RWD car by its very nature. I'm sure BMW's entry will be more fun than the very boring A3 and A/CLA, but it's still disappointing.

And I agree the F-chassis cars sucked nuts.
There's a point of rwd diminishing returns though that is keyed to weight, wheelbase and traction available. I greatly prefer small, light, tossable cars with a manual. A fwd car that fits those parameters is often more fun than a rwd one that misses one, two or all of those. My high school CRX Si was always more fun than my parents 560SL/SEL/SEC and 500 SL's. Snoozefest, glorified taxis.

Of course a similarly sized rwd car will usually be more enjoyable than a similarly sized fwd or awd car, but when smallish rwd cars aren't available in a class, I'm willing to defect to pullers.
We are not talking about a quid pro quo here. BMW can still make a RWD, light, powerful, manual platform, AKA the 235i and in a sedan form and it would have sold a lot better than the couple-only 2-series.

Do you think the A3 and the CLA sell because they are AWD, lightweight, fun cars? Maybe yes, but primarily it's because they are sedans.

A 2-series sedan (1-Series) platform with a B58 and RWD platform will be killer.

At least we know we'll have an Xdrive version. That should be a fun car.
Nope, 2er is fatter than the already porky F30, and G20 saves a little weight on both. 1er was a porker too. Adding more doors isn't going to help. The real issue is that BMW needed a dedicated chassis for this type of car, not just a shortened 3er. Sharing with Mini allows more overall sales than creating a stand alone chassis for the 2er. Even though I fully admit that this would have been the wildly more appealing solution to enthusiasts, if not accountants.

VW MQB Evo cars have been coming in around 150 to 200 pounds lighter than MQB cars. So the Mk8 GTI will likely be 2900-2950 pounds and an A3 about 100 more than that. With the Golf R and S3 being maybe 100 over that. If BMW sticks to the 2er being about 100 pounds more than a 3er, than the M240i should be around 3,500 pounds again. So a 10% heavier car than the equivalent S3. The good news is that M seems to take the M2 seriously, so hopefully the next M2 is close to the next RS3 in weight.
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      03-20-2019, 10:15 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marcva View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
Sorry BMW ... you took far too long to come to market, and now that you have, it's a copycat that has no identity.
But in order to complete, you must copy. A rear drive sedan would be out of place in the market for small sedans. Space and price point take precedence over unique driving dynamics, hence fwd.
Actually BMW has differentiated itself in the market in the past, by NOT being the same as the others.

Agree 100 percent that you have to field a product in the space... BMW abandoned this product niche ( which they practically invented, and dominated for decades, then left it for dead, got their lunch handed to them in the space they abandoned , which cost them the luxury small vehicle sales crown they had held for years, and indeed, now they realized there is market share to be had and they have returned with milquetoast to sop up whatever leftovers are around.

BMW needs to hit a home run here. Mercedes already has facelift CLA out already. In many ways the X7, as well as X3M, X4M are also models that BMW has come to market late with.

If a G87 coupe has the green light , BMW should be looking at a sedan off the same chassis as well, I can't imagine how an E90 M3 sized sedan wouldn't sell if the coupe will.

BMW not fielding a 1 series sedan or a 2 series sedan in this product segment for a decade or so just is so
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      03-21-2019, 02:17 AM   #96
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It's like every coupe has to have a "grand" version. This is ultimately why the 3 series was broke up after E9X IMO. You couldn't have a 4 series grand coupe previously because this would just be a ridiculously redundant 4 door 3 series. So why do we need a grand coupe in every model now? To me it's like PC car manufacturing! "We're bound to make something somebody likes now":
So more choices are bad, essentially.

The negativity in this forum is suffocating
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      03-21-2019, 03:26 AM   #97
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Scrippy View Post
It's like every coupe has to have a "grand" version. This is ultimately why the 3 series was broke up after E9X IMO. You couldn't have a 4 series grand coupe previously because this would just be a ridiculously redundant 4 door 3 series. So why do we need a grand coupe in every model now? To me it's like PC car manufacturing! "We're bound to make something somebody likes now":
So more choices are bad, essentially.

The negativity in this forum is suffocating
Precisely! How about we make the brands OG's better? No your right.....we need a X1 and a 2/3/4/6/8 grancoupe?
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      03-21-2019, 08:15 AM   #98
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Quote:
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It's like every coupe has to have a "grand" version. This is ultimately why the 3 series was broke up after E9X IMO. You couldn't have a 4 series grand coupe previously because this would just be a ridiculously redundant 4 door 3 series. So why do we need a grand coupe in every model now? To me it's like PC car manufacturing! "We're bound to make something somebody likes now":
So more choices are bad, essentially.

The negativity in this forum is suffocating
The constant disappointment from bmw, the sense that enthusiasts are getting kicked to the curb for them to simply build cars for those who just want the badge and the fact that bmw has contradicted itself more to those enthusiasts than any car maker in recent times that I can think of is even worse.
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      03-21-2019, 10:38 AM   #99
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I am hating on this FWD for one reason.

Not RWD..


I'm definitely one of the half the people commenting that aren't going to buy one (now).

Just like I own an E84 X1 and haven't bought an F48..

I agree that BMW has abandoned E30, E36 , E46, and E90 sedan fans by pushing the Model currently badged as 3er so far up in size, however returning with a FWD/AWD variant only because Mercedes A and Audi A3 have been eating your lunch in the segment you pioneered, and then to now just follow ...

At the very least this should be capable of AWD/RWD like the M5 ..
Spot on mate!
Thats why we are keeping the X1 E84.
The new 2 should have been a reiteration of the old E46 at least. With a proper luxury interior package, a RWD biased xDrive, BMW could have a special niche with lots of customers instead of blending in in a market where there are plenty of FWD vehicles.
I stronlgy believe that this is a bad strategy as many will think twice if just a badge with a very poor interior (see new X1), really worth the money over another half price FWD.
This could have been the main money maker for BMW if properly done.

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      03-21-2019, 10:48 AM   #100
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And I agree the F-chassis cars sucked nuts.
Quote:
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Anything is better than the F series cars, even a fwd "coupe."
I'm keen to hear both your thoughts on what you didn't like about the F-generation, is that all of them you're referring to or just the 2 or 4 series?
Going from E-series (E92) to F was going to be the most obvious upgrade for me but something has made me hang onto what I've got and think of waiting for something like a G80 to appear. Hearing about bad interior quality and worse driving dynamics are some things I've heard from others but wondered if you were referring to additional things too.
Cheers
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      03-21-2019, 11:05 AM   #101
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      03-21-2019, 11:15 AM   #102
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Was really cool when you believed this, BMW.
Sad times...

BMW having no respect for its heritage.

BMW: Became Much Worse
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      03-21-2019, 11:17 AM   #103
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The distinctive "hofmeister kink" is slowly dying... everything looks like any Kia, Hyndai, Toyota, Lexus, ....
The Alfa Romeo kinda has it and the car is pretty nice, unlike modern BMWs. ;-)
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      03-21-2019, 11:21 AM   #104
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Looks fantastic so far.
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      03-21-2019, 11:45 AM   #105
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And I agree the F-chassis cars sucked nuts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Anything is better than the F series cars, even a fwd "coupe."
I'm keen to hear both your thoughts on what you didn't like about the F-generation, is that all of them you're referring to or just the 2 or 4 series?
Going from E-series (E92) to F was going to be the most obvious upgrade for me but something has made me hang onto what I've got and think of waiting for something like a G80 to appear. Hearing about bad interior quality and worse driving dynamics are some things I've heard from others but wondered if you were referring to additional things too.
Cheers
All of them. Honestly the F10 was even worse than the F30, but we had an F30 for three years in the garage, so I'll speak to that. My wife had an E84 X1 x35i that was the perfect kid hauler. Some kids in a stolen car hit her and totaled it, so we needed a replacement.

Enter F30, which had just gotten the LCI and received lots of journalism praise for getting the steering back to almost okay and fixing some of the ride and interior issues of the pre-LCI. Well, while the pre LCI was truly a mess, the LCI was still bad. If you drove it and hit Sport+ and used DS, it felt mostly like an E90 with no steering feedback that just hated gas because it was shifting high up the rev band and wouldn't use top gears.

But you had to do that each time you turned it on. If you just got in, put it D and didn't hit Sport, it was the numbest, laziest thing possible. It made my parents old Mercedes seem inspired. I always said about those 90's Mercedes that they could go fast and they did handle okay, but they always seemed to be put out by the whole experience, like they'd really prefer to just be loafing around. That's how the F30 felt. You could make it go fast and it wasn't that bad at it, but it just always felt like it wasn't its preference. And that doesn't fit with any of my previous experience with BMWs of the M or non M realm. They always left the impression that if you just drove it sedately, the car was secretly disappointed in your lameness. The F30 welcomes lameness, gave it a soft pillow, a hug and sang it a song before bed.
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      03-21-2019, 02:37 PM   #106
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I'm keen to hear both your thoughts on what you didn't like about the F-generation, is that all of them you're referring to or just the 2 or 4 series?
Going from E-series (E92) to F was going to be the most obvious upgrade for me but something has made me hang onto what I've got and think of waiting for something like a G80 to appear. Hearing about bad interior quality and worse driving dynamics are some things I've heard from others but wondered if you were referring to additional things too.
Cheers
Every single F-chassis car was less engaging to drive than its predecessor, some like the 5-series and 3-series were a downright shame to the roundel on the hood. Steering, chassis tuning, etc. made you feel like you were driving a Camry compared to the cars they replaced. The 3er also had a very clearly cheapened interior. The F15 was also very disappointing as it was basically a nip-tuck E70 (especially inside) with neutered steering. It's no wonder they replaced that thing in 5 years.

BMW [naturally] started losing comparison tests from all publications. It still baffles my mind how an established performance-oriented brand totally pulled a 180 on how they engineered their cars. Car & Driver did a detailed analysis on this and even interviewed some fat cat at BMW. He kept playing dumb and deflecting whenever asked about the poor steering tuning. Altogether 2010 - ? was really a slap in the face to all of us.

Last edited by Germanauto; 03-21-2019 at 02:45 PM..
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      03-21-2019, 02:54 PM   #107
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Actually BMW has differentiated itself in the market in the past, by NOT being the same as the others.

Agree 100 percent that you have to field a product in the space... BMW abandoned this product niche ( which they practically invented, and dominated for decades, then left it for dead, got their lunch handed to them in the space they abandoned , which cost them the luxury small vehicle sales crown they had held for years, and indeed, now they realized there is market share to be had and they have returned with milquetoast to sop up whatever leftovers are around.

BMW needs to hit a home run here. Mercedes already has facelift CLA out already. In many ways the X7, as well as X3M, X4M are also models that BMW has come to market late with.

If a G87 coupe has the green light , BMW should be looking at a sedan off the same chassis as well, I can't imagine how an E90 M3 sized sedan wouldn't sell if the coupe will.

BMW not fielding a 1 series sedan or a 2 series sedan in this product segment for a decade or so just is so
I guess I needed a sarcasm tag. I was trying out my corporate voice.
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      03-21-2019, 07:05 PM   #108
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Not knowing it was does not mean you can't tell the driving dynamics will be different. Torque steering, understeer, etc are very present in high torque FWD platform and it's not something that's desirable in a performance platform.
I think most consumers are never going to be in a driving situation where they will feel understeer / oversteer / etc...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Penguino View Post
We are not talking about a quid pro quo here. BMW can still make a RWD, light, powerful, manual platform, AKA the 235i and in a sedan form and it would have sold a lot better than the couple-only 2-series.

Do you think the A3 and the CLA sell because they are AWD, lightweight, fun cars? Maybe yes, but primarily it's because they are sedans.

A 2-series sedan (1-Series) platform with a B58 and RWD platform will be killer.

At least we know we'll have an Xdrive version. That should be a fun car.
The A3 and CLA sell because they have the Audi and Mercedes badges on them and more importantly, are relatively cheap.

The fact of the matter is that a CLAR-based RWD platform with a 6-cyl engine is going to be more expensive (see M340i) than a FWD-based high-strung 4-pot (CLA 45 AMG).
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      03-21-2019, 07:14 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Rupes View Post
Was really cool when you believed this, BMW.
Sad times...

BMW having no respect for its heritage.

BMW: Became Much Worse





I remember both of those ads. And I'm disappointed to hear that savings of $1000 a car decision is all it took to roll over.
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      03-22-2019, 03:21 AM   #110
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But it is not just cost savings. FWD 4 pot cars leave a lot more room in the cabin for passengers. That might not matter all that much for a 5 or 7 series, but it certainly will for the new 1 series or the 2GC.

Besides, BMW still has the 2 series coupe with RWD so people can just pick what they want. If all you care about is driving dynamics, then surely you can do with a coupe and don't need a sedan.
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