Stock F82: baseline track impressions

[thecarsavant]

After a full day of lapping Hallet Motor Raceway, I can officially say that I’m hooked on HPDE’s!

I quickly reached the limits of the stock damper/tire/allignment capabilities. Only mods are Macht Schnell lowering springs+spacers, PFC 08 brake pads+bimmerworld stainless lines, Motul RBF600, and Continental ECS02 tires. BM3 OTS CS tune.

Initial impressions: S55 is a masterpiece with the throttle response and low-end torque. Brake pads feel mighty but am worried about overcooking them as the rotors were glazed and the calipers turned a dark green. I’m told that this isn’t abnormal. Nevertheless, I’m left desiring more from the suspension and kinematics most. The dampers feel unable to cope with undulating dips. This throws the car into snap-oversteer on corner exit. Additionally, the lack of front camber makes the front feel nervous and disconnected.

The obvious solution seems to be upgraded dampers, camber plates, wider/sticker wheels and tires, and alignment. Would love your recommendations (looking at MCS and Nitron for coilovers) on upgrade path and critiques on my driving.

https://youtu.be/8vTDWB2ExZo?si=k-Lls30ZCl-nDX_z

https://youtu.be/qI6c9WGY12I?si=ZugjwPCd_-SBnvXU

[M3SQRD]

I’ve been tracking for 36 years of mostly M cars and I didn’t extract 100% of the f82 capabilities in one track event. I don’t know your background but I’m certain there’s more to be found in your f82. If you’re carrying sufficient speed thru the corners, you should not be using the low rpm torque of the s55. Camber plates should be one of the first things you should add otherwise you’re not getting the most out of the tire and you’ll quickly destroy the outer tread blocks. Set the camber around -2.5 deg for a compromised street-track setup vs. a -3.0 to -3.5 deg for track. If you used stock tires then you’ve got a lot more to extract from the car. Were you running with DSC on or off and MDM on or off?

What do you mean by “desiring more the suspension and the kinematics most”? Unless you go with the BW GTmore front kinematics, the most you can do is swap stock arms with aftermarket arms with momoballs at each end. This frees things up a bit but it’s still the same kinematics. With a MCS or Nitron setup, are you looking at 1-way, 2-way (no Nitron option) or 3-way dampers? What’s your background in setting up dampers? What is your experience level - beginner, intermediate or advanced/instructor? 3-ways are an easy way to get lost on setting up a car. I’m running MCS 2WRs on three of my cars and I absolutely love their performance window. Nitron dampers are also high-end dampers so it comes down to after-support and service. MCS is second to none when it comes to supply and service.

Yes it’s common for the blue brake calipers to change to green-ish to brown-ish. Glazed rotors tend to be shiny it in your case it looks like the brake system was subjected to extreme temperatures and the pads left non-uniform pad material on the rotor surface. I’d take a look at the pads because they may be glazed. I’d recommend the 11 compound (sprint race) over the 08 (endurance).

If you’re looking for a set of track wheels, 18x10.5et 36 square (with 15 mm front spacer) with 285/30 or 295/30 tires. I’d recommend 200 TW tires before trying R7 or other slick race tires.

[thecarsavant]

M3SQRD Thanks for your well-written response! This is precisely the caliber of feedback I was hoping to receive. 36years is mighty impressive and warmly welcome your feedback on my driving as I’m relatively new to HPDE. Ran with ESC fully off the entire day, as I felt MDM was too invasive.

I’m an intermediate driver and am seeking to enhance the level of feedback and sharpness while gaining more confidence in the F8X platform. I have no doubt that there is untapped performance in it’s current form but as you said, running without camber plates is futile for front-end stability. The window to achieve an optimal lap is not long before overcooking the tires due to the OEM allignment and 300tw tire.

By ‘kinematics’ I’m referring to how the car reacts to bumps on corner entry/exit. Would feel most comfortable with a single or double adjustable damper to suit my budget and experience level.

Please elaborate on how I can scrub off this uneven pad material on my rotors and proper procedure to bed them in? The noise on the PFC08 is unbelievably loud on the street (as expected) but I can’t help but feel that I didn’t bed them in properly, due to the uneven pad deposits.

Thanks,
-Matt

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by thecarsavant

M3SQRD Thanks for your well-written response! This is precisely the caliber of feedback I was hoping to receive. 36years is mighty impressive and warmly welcome your feedback on my driving as I’m relatively new to HPDE. Ran with ESC fully off the entire day, as I felt MDM was too invasive.

Hey Matt! I started tracking in the late 80s because a high school friend’s uncle owns Summit Point Raceway in WV. Started with a Honda CRX with an unimpressive 105 hp and I immediately wanted more and more track time. Sounds like you’ve been sucked into this expensive sport/hobby! It’s great to hear you’re out on track with DSC off because it’s easy to develop bad habits and then they try running with DSC for the first in years and crash on their 1st day without DSC! I find approaching the limit is more manageable with DSC off because you can really feel what the car is doing. You’re off to a good start. I find MDM to be odd. It helps you 90% of the time and somewhere in that 10% it can put you into a bad situation that leaves it up to you save yet there’s something fighting you to correct it. Not a fan of MDM on track and definitely not on street.

I’m an intermediate driver and am seeking to enhance the level of feedback and sharpness while gaining more confidence in the F8X platform. I have no doubt that there is untapped performance in its current form but as you said, running without camber plates is futile for front-end stability. The window to achieve an optimal lap is not long before overcooking the tires due to the OEM allignment and 300tw tire.

Got it. Camber plates are a must have. Nice thing is most camber plates can handle an oem spring and, if you buy a new spring adapter, you can a 2.25” or 60 mm, etc.Camber plates pay for themselves quickly be extending tire life.

By ‘kinematics’ I’m referring to how the car reacts to bumps on corner entry/exit. Would feel most comfortable with a single or double adjustable damper to suit my budget and experience level.

A 1-way gives you some setup ability but since most high-end dampers only control rebound (I think Intrax may control both rebound and compression and a popular beg-med level driver is the Ohlins R&T with controls both R and C together) but it limits what you can adjust for. For your example of a bump at corner entry or mid-corner, you cannot adjust for so it’s always a compromised setup. 2-way definitely gives you a lot of adjustability with fewer compromises. 3-way/4-way is the best but also the most challenging to setup properly. I can setup 3/4-way but I prefer 2WR because I tend to spend too much time constantly making changes to fine tune the setup rather than just enjoying the track. Would I be faster on 3/4-way? Yes but I’m at the point where I’m no longer trying to find the last 0.1-0.2 sec. Plus sticking with the MCS 2WR allowed me (convinced the wife ) to purchase three 2WR setups. I’d recommend at a minimum an Ohlins R&T setup or, so you don’t have to buy a suspension a second time, a true 2-way independent R and C adjustable setup if you can afford it. (~$3.1-3.5kish R&T,~$5.5-7.5kish for 2-way setups).

Please elaborate on how I can scrub off this uneven pad material on my rotors and proper procedure to bed them in? The noise on the PFC08 is unbelievably loud on the street (as expected) but I can’t help but feel that I didn’t bed them in properly, due to the uneven pad deposits.

Thanks,
-Matt

For the pads, I use a very coarse sanding block initially and then finish off with a finer grit and then reinstall the pad. Then use the cleaned up brake pad and run it on the street to clean up the rotors. There are two types of braking - ablative and abrasive. Ablative is when you’ve done your bedding procedure and properly transferred pad material to the rotor surface. Then when you brake you’re actually wearing (abalating) the pad transfer layer on the rotor surface whereas abrasive braking is when a track/race pad is cold and not up to temp, the pad acts like a brake lathe and removes material from the rotor surface. It usually take 1-2 weeks of street braking to clean the rotor surface. Then rebed or switch to your street pads. Bedding procedure I use is:
1. Drive for 15-20 min with moderate braking force to properly and uniformly heat up the rotors.
2. Do 3-4 stops in rapid succession from 60-20 mph without engaging ABS.
3. Do 4-5 stops in rapid succession from 80-20 mph without engaging ABS.
4. Drive for 20-25 min without applying the brakes and you’re done (this last part works best if you do the bedding process near a highly or on side roads not heavily traveled where you won’t need to apply the brakes or worst case just lightly apply the brakes, if needed),

[b_w.]

Get some camber plates. I liked the GC ones I had. Another cheap upgrade that makes a big difference to steering feel is the monoball thrust arms. I started with MCs 2wnr and they were great but moved onto 2wr. Big difference on how they soak up the bumps.

I liked the pfc08 pads with the blue brakes. Unless your rotors were really worn going in they should hold up great on track.

[M1500Z]

Originally Posted by thecarsavant

After a full day of lapping Hallet Motor Raceway, I can officially say that I’m hooked on HPDE’s!

I quickly reached the limits of the stock damper/tire/allignment capabilities. Only mods are Macht Schnell lowering springs+spacers, PFC 08 brake pads+bimmerworld stainless lines, Motul RBF600, and Continental ECS02 tires. BM3 OTS CS tune.

Initial impressions: S55 is a masterpiece with the throttle response and low-end torque. Brake pads feel mighty but am worried about overcooking them as the rotors were glazed and the calipers turned a dark green. I’m told that this isn’t abnormal. Nevertheless, I’m left desiring more from the suspension and kinematics most. The dampers feel unable to cope with undulating dips. This throws the car into snap-oversteer on corner exit. Additionally, the lack of front camber makes the front feel nervous and disconnected.

The obvious solution seems to be upgraded dampers, camber plates, wider/sticker wheels and tires, and alignment. Would love your recommendations (looking at MCS and Nitron for coilovers) on upgrade path and critiques on my driving.

https://youtu.be/8vTDWB2ExZo?si=k-Lls30ZCl-nDX_z

https://youtu.be/qI6c9WGY12I?si=ZugjwPCd_-SBnvXU

Originally Posted by thecarsavant

...Ran with ESC fully off the entire day, as I felt MDM was too invasive.

I’m an intermediate driver and am seeking to enhance the level of feedback and sharpness while gaining more confidence in the F8X platform. I have no doubt that there is untapped performance in it’s current form but as you said, running without camber plates is futile for front-end stability. The window to achieve an optimal lap is not long before overcooking the tires due to the OEM allignment and 300tw tire.

By ‘kinematics’ I’m referring to how the car reacts to bumps on corner entry/exit. Would feel most comfortable with a single or double adjustable damper to suit my budget and experience level.

I had the pleasure of driving Hallett last year with NASA—it's a really fun track and it would be nice to get back there this year. It's far from the smoothest of surfaces, but it's not terrible, more a constant bumbling around than anything.

First, I watched your videos and looks like your quickest lap was a 1:30 or thereabouts? Good work, and some nice quick hands on a couple corrections. Let's put the questions of mods aside for a moment and focus on line and driving. The first thing I noticed is you've got very late apexes at quite a few corners and Hallett is a track that tends to reward an earlier turn-in and kind of riding the inside curbing. This is because the track cambers in and you can roll in quite a bit of speed that way. It's hard to tell in your video why, but it looks like you're driving the car into the corner, overslowing, rotating the car and then getting back on throttle—in some cases pretty early. It's really noticeable at T2 and T6. This can lead to some less desirable things like mid-corner understeer or oversteer. Find that point where you ideally would apply throttle and be disciplined in waiting until that point—ideally this is where you'll have the slowest point of the corner—even if that means you're coasting for a little bit. If you overslow the car and that coast feeling frustratingly long, that likely means you can roll more speed into the corner. As an aside, I don't think there's anything wrong with MDM as long as it's euro MDM—it's significantly more forgiving and having that little safety net isn't a bad thing.

With a car on stock suspension, it can take a little longer to take a set or balance in a corner, so being patient and smooth helps and I think will make you a better driver in the long run. So rather than jumping to the conclusion that you've hit the limit of what the stock parts can do, see how you can work around that.

That said, here's what I'd recommend in terms of suspension items—it's a lot of what's already been said.

• First and foremost camber plates and a proper alignment will go far in improving the car's feel and your tire life. I'd had Ground Control in the past but feel the Vorshlag plates are much better engineered. They're also from TX if you care.
• Front thrust arm bearings (monoballs) will greatly help with the feeling of the front end. I prefer the caster adjustable ones since they running a little more caster is a good thing on this chassis.
• Not a requirement, but rear toe arms are a nice item to have. These few items can take you far.

Also, maybe even before moving to a different tire, if you can put a better seat and a harness in the car, that will be a massive improvement in how the car communicates with you—it's generally safer as well. You're bouncing around quite a bit and a lot of those movements seemed to transfer to the steering wheel—secure yourself before increasing the cars limits. Bonus of being secure in a DCT car is you can left-foot brake which is a huge benefit.

I don't think that you need to go immediately into kinematics (a word that gets thrown around too much these days). Part of the problem is likely the lowering springs—they reduce the compression travel of your damper and then the car is being asked to drive around a bumpy track. If the F80 is anything like the M2, it's likely the car is hitting the bump stops, shocking the tire and reducing the amount of grip available. That could definitely cause the car to feel twitchy.

Get some more seat time and work on extracting more from the car before increasing the performance envelope and I think you'll be better for it. On the note of tires, I think a good lapping tire like the Conti ECF would be an excellent choice, or Goodyear SuperCar 3s. Here's a couple onboards from Hallett that I think will help in the future. The E92 onboard has excellent use of line and available track. The M2 is me on some unknown RS4 takeoffs and some so-so driving.

[M3SQRD]

Euro or GTS MDM is great right up to point it loses control of the car and then fights you to recover from an impending spin or tank slapper. I’d strongly recommend getting off of Euro or GTS MDM, to full DSC off, as soon as possible because you’ll develop bad habits that can be tough to get ride of them. Any MDM is not good long term. Just respect the throttle pedal and roll on the throttle. You’ll quickly realize the f8x is much easier to drive with DSC off on track only. Build your speed back up session by session, decreasing increasing pace with each session. Suddenly your pace will be quicker than your MDM on pace.

[thecarsavant]

WOW this is practically the biblical response to bettering track days! Your experience at Hallett is spot on. I recently got back from my second outing and ran a 1:28.92 on the same setup. I'll take your advice in spades, thanks mate! M1500Z

Lap Footage

[thecarsavant]

Follow-up post! https://www.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...php?p=31175001